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Someone explain to me why Matt Slater is not used more often at WR?


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Brady rates 2nd in passing this year, 1st last year (NFL.com). Cassell was rated 10th when Brady went down.

Please explain to me how that could be true with two different QBs while all our pass catching players are horrible?

Oddly enough, the receiving corps is not the same in the two examples you've given. I wonder if that might be some part of the answer.........
 
Yes we are missing Tate from the team that was #1 last year. And we are now only #2. I, for one, celebrated bringing in Ocho as a replacement for Tate. Ocho could still be more important as the #5 or #6 receiving threat than Tate was.

Oddly enough, the receiving corps is not the same in the two examples you've given. I wonder if that might be some part of the answer.........
 

lol, I can spin this too. Out of about 50 special teams tackles, he's only made about 10. Since he's usually the first one down the field, that would equate to him missing 80% of possible tackles (obviously that's not true but stats don't mean everything).

Just for fun:

NFL Videos: WK 13 Can't-Miss Play: Slater's costly turnover

At least 4 times he had a hand on the ball and couldn't keep it, and he even kicked it away from himself!!! Get the man some stickum!!!

Ted Ginn Jr - Cliford Franklin - YouTube
 
Yes we are missing Tate from the team that was #1 last year. And we are now only #2. I, for one, celebrated bringing in Ocho as a replacement for Tate. Ocho could still be more important as the #5 or #6 receiving threat than Tate was.

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There's the little matter of Randy Moss and Jabar Gaffney, but Brandon Tate has nothing to do with it.
 
Slater is a beast on special teams. Not sure how anyone can deny that. And this is coming from someone who for the last couple years has been REALLY down on Slater since his ball skills are so pathetic and he has hands like rocks.
 
Can anyone explain to me why we pine for players
who would be the 4th, 5th and 6th options in the offense. :confused3:

Because in the playoffs, good teams defenses will zero in on 3 guys and if they can get them covered as well as they have done 2 years in a row then it's light out for Brady....that's why

We need someone that can surprise and go long on any given snap and at least try and use speed and hope to get a completion .....not saying Slater is the answer after this season,but at least this year I think he is no worse than
Price and Edelman and certainly can do better than a piece of sh!t,washed up freaking waste of roster space like Ocho
 
Oddly enough, the receiving corps is not the same in the two examples you've given. I wonder if that might be some part of the answer.........

Neither is the quarterback (10th in the league being pretty good for a guy who hardly played in college or the pros IMO).

Yes, I do believe that's a huge part of the answer. Many receivers struggle to learn the nuances of the offense, but it works very well for those who do.

We effectively use TEs, slot receivers and running backs. Many posters only want a one QB, huge receiver hookup because it's sensational. I'll take what works, which requires patience when adding new parts, there's only one football.
 
Neither is the quarterback (10th in the league being pretty good for a guy who hardly played in college or the pros IMO).

Yes, I do believe that's a huge part of the answer. Many receivers struggle to learn the nuances of the offense, but it works very well for those who do.

We effectively use TEs, slot receivers and running backs. Many posters only want a one QB, huge receiver hookup because it's sensational. I'll take what works, which requires patience when adding new parts, there's only one football.

Then what was the point of bringing Cassel into the discussion? His numbers have nothing to do with Brady's current numbers, and they were an enormous drop from the 2007 numbers Brady put up.
 
Then what was the point of bringing Cassel into the discussion? His numbers have nothing to do with Brady's current numbers, and they were an enormous drop from the 2007 numbers Brady put up.

If you want to set one receiver, one QB records, you can't do much better than 2007. Not something I'm particularly interested in, though.

In 2008, Welker had many more catches and also more yards than Moss. The Patriots system, with a QB who had practiced it is why I brought it up.

What did Moss have to do with Brady's unanimous MVP season last year? You have me confused. His TD/int ratio and just about everything statistically was outstanding.

...Or his record breaking passing yard game this season, for that matter?
 
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If you want to set one receiver, one QB records, you can't do much better than 2007. Not something I'm particularly interested in, though.

In 2008, Welker had many more catches and also more yards than Moss. The Patriots system, with a QB who had practiced it is why I brought it up.

What did Moss have to do with Brady's unanimous MVP season last year? You have me confused. His TD/int ratio and just about everything statistically was outstanding.

...Or his record breaking passing yard game this season, for that matter?

You're the one who tried to bring Cassel, with his entirely different group of recievers (save for Welker) into the mix. Don't go trying to flip this around now. All I did was note the more fitting comparison for Cassel, which was 2007.
 
You're the one who tried to bring Cassel, with his entirely different group of recievers (save for Welker) into the mix. Don't go trying to flip this around now. All I did was note the more fitting comparison for Cassel, which was 2007.

My point is simple. We won three championships and winning seasons every year with a passing system more than individual great receivers. We had a great receiver in Moss and one great season, during which we became more predictable toward the end.

Our "system" also succumbed to our mistakes and a great game plan from Ryan last year, no one said it was easy. If we identify a deep threat receiver that works within our system, fine. I'm not in favor of changing things again to favor one receiver at the expense of the system. It's much easier to stop one thing than a system with many moving parts that can be adjusted IMO.

Between Wes, Gronk, Hernandez and Branch, we might have the top four combined receivers in the league. Branch has the least amount of catches, and he has 39 already. Someone can check and see if anyone else has 4 receivers likely rto catch betwee 60 and 120 balls or more (projection).

Besides them, we have Ocho, Woodhead Faulk, Ridley and Edelman, plus BJ and Slater, who i don't consider to be polished receivers. ...and we haven't thrown a ball to Vereen yet, or really seen what Price can do.

In my youth, it was all about the long pass and QBs had completion percentages in the 40s and 50s. That changed a long time ago. Not saying a deep threat doesn't help, but it's way overrated in the type of offense we successfully run. It's also hard to learn and lots of receivers either can't, or don't want to pick it up, so I'd rather be patient. we,ve got a lot of guys who can produce in the passing game and the best QB to utilize multiple receivers.
 
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Please post with regard to how our passing game compared to the rest of the nfl last year and this. You, and others, post as if we have a terrible passing game. We have among the very best.

This is because Brady does well with his first FOUR receiving targets Welker, Branch, Gronkowksi and Hernandez). His #5 choice last year and this was Woodhead (reasonable). I would think that this is pretty good shopping since 4 of these players have arrived since the 2006-2007 off-season.

We seem to be fussing because Hernandez is labeled TE instead of WR. If Hernandez were labeled a WR, then we would think that our wide receivers are doing fine.

We seem to be really, really focused on the lack of production from those players who are fighting to be Brady's #6 receiving target (Ochocinco, Price, and Edelman). Another toy for Brady would be nice for the playoffs, but the reality is that the importance of any of these three as a receiver is only when others are injured.

I simply stated that since the 2006-2007 offseason, we have not done a good job at "shopping" for the position of WR. I am not arguing on behalf of one side or another in terms of the effectiveness of the WR position.

If you consider Joey Galloway, Chad Ochocinco and Torry Holt as "good" free agent pickups, then that is your opinion, and I am fine with that.
 
I dont think its necessarily someone who can go deep we need, but someone who can beat man/press coverage with their speed/athleticism and play the sidelines which helps open up the middle of the field...I think Belichick knew that was our weakness hence why he traded for Ocho(although it hasnt really worked out). alot of bradys sacks are coverage sacks because no one is open.

Deion Branch certainly has been a productive receiver for us and is a product of the system of what you are saying Rayclay. he was pretty average in seattle, comes back here and immediately his production jumps

hes quietly putting together a solid season. but, like Welker, Gronk, Hernandez...he operates in the slot...and defenses are starting to clog the middle of the field...it just adds a different dimension to the offense and would make it much deadlier.

its crazy to me watching these teams playing rookie WR's to success like baltimore. just lobbing up balls for them to catch. and the pats dont have that...hopefully Price can show some promise tomorrow
 
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Please post with regard to how our passing game compared to the rest of the nfl last year and this. You, and others, post as if we have a terrible passing game. We have among the very best.

This is because Brady does well with his first FOUR receiving targets Welker, Branch, Gronkowksi and Hernandez). His #5 choice last year and this was Woodhead (reasonable). I would think that this is pretty good shopping since 4 of these players have arrived since the 2006-2007 off-season.

We seem to be fussing because Hernandez is labeled TE instead of WR. If Hernandez were labeled a WR, then we would think that our wide receivers are doing fine.

We seem to be really, really focused on the lack of production from those players who are fighting to be Brady's #6 receiving target (Ochocinco, Price, and Edelman). Another toy for Brady would be nice for the playoffs, but the reality is that the importance of any of these three as a receiver is only when others are injured.

While I agree that the WR situation is fine in many areas, it is also lacking in many areas too. As we have seen, when teams double Welker and can limit Gronkowski's effectiveness, we are a very different offense.

I agree that you have a good point in stating that the passing/WR game is pretty damn successful on many levels. However, it is the threat of repeating the scenario stated above that worries many of us.

If you have not seen many limitations with the offense in the past 5-6 games, you are watching another team. Many of the times they are fine, but having a better possession WR and/or downfield threat would have opened things up vs some of the stronger man coverage schemes and defenses.

In other words, versatility (being able to have success with bread and butter timing routes underneath AND having some semblance of a downfield game) would pay off much better vs certain schemes and defenses, possibly when it really matters.

Some think that if you'd trade in a guy like Branch (who is limited) for another mid-level target who can run timing routes AND do a better job vertically of beating man coverage, we'd have a much more limitless offense in many regards.

Your point of targeting the first 4 options is fine, but in that case, some of us would like to improve those first 4 options and move a guy like Branch down the list...which would make the position stronger altogether.

Forget about the A.Hernandez debate (WR/TE). It doesn't matter to me, but it is my opinion that eventually teams will successfully find a way to double Welker and limit Gronkowski, as we have seen to some extent. That may leave us without another deep playoff run. I like Hernandez, as a TE...or a TE/WR hybrid. But some of us think that we could use someone that is going to fully take advantage of Brady's potential in a more vertical fashion, if and when that proves necessary.

It is a very reasonable point, and I am not being negative or pessimistic at all. I am very thankful for what we have, but often wonder if it will take us to where we 'should' be, with one of the greatest QB's of all-time, and a very potent offense.
 
My point is simple. We won three championships and winning seasons every year with a passing system more than individual great receivers. We had a great receiver in Moss and one great season, during which we became more predictable toward the end.

Our "system" also succumbed to our mistakes and a great game plan from Ryan last year, no one said it was easy. If we identify a deep threat receiver that works within our system, fine. I'm not in favor of changing things again to favor one receiver at the expense of the system. It's much easier to stop one thing than a system with many moving parts that can be adjusted IMO.

Between Wes, Gronk, Hernandez and Branch, we might have the top four combined receivers in the league. Branch has the least amount of catches, and he has 39 already. Someone can check and see if anyone else has 4 receivers likely rto catch betwee 60 and 120 balls or more (projection).

Besides them, we have Ocho, Woodhead Faulk, Ridley and Edelman, plus BJ and Slater, who i don't consider to be polished receivers. ...and we haven't thrown a ball to Vereen yet, or really seen what Price can do.

In my youth, it was all about the long pass and QBs had completion percentages in the 40s and 50s. That changed a long time ago. Not saying a deep threat doesn't help, but it's way overrated in the type of offense we successfully run. It's also hard to learn and lots of receivers either can't, or don't want to pick it up, so I'd rather be patient. we,ve got a lot of guys who can produce in the passing game and the best QB to utilize multiple receivers.

Your point is valid, RayClay. But what needs to be remembered about those passing teams of 2001-2004 is that we had a much more pressuring and potent defense, along with some other factors that have changed too.

To be fair, I think you have to look at the entire team, to chart its strengths and weaknesses. The success of the passing game and Reche Caldwell in 2006 was not just due to the WR's specifically. We still had a pretty decent defense at times, and some veteran leadership and experienced players in other areas.

In other words, our offense is our bread and butter...by far. We have one of the greatest weapons on that side of the ball, and that aspect also masks our defensive flaws. In the yrs of 2001-2004, those strong Patriot defenses were allowing points per game in the high teens. Some of those defenses were #1, maybe #2 in certain stats and areas.

Since we obviously don't have that currently, then we'll have to be good with having a middle of the road defense, and a very potent, high-caliber offense at all times. There are teams like the N.Orleans Saints, and Green Bay Packers who are throwing up points and yardage on just about everyone at any given time, whether it's man coverage, zone coverage, whatever...

If we're going to need to score in the early to mid 30's every game, especially in the playoffs with no problem, then the point of having better success at WR versatility comes into play.

There are really both sides to the argument, and I am not really suggesting that you're wrong...just stating what many are thinking in that aspect.
 
My point is simple. We won three championships and winning seasons every year with a passing system more than individual great receivers. We had a great receiver in Moss and one great season, during which we became more predictable toward the end.

Our "system" also succumbed to our mistakes and a great game plan from Ryan last year, no one said it was easy. If we identify a deep threat receiver that works within our system, fine. I'm not in favor of changing things again to favor one receiver at the expense of the system. It's much easier to stop one thing than a system with many moving parts that can be adjusted IMO.

Between Wes, Gronk, Hernandez and Branch, we might have the top four combined receivers in the league. Branch has the least amount of catches, and he has 39 already. Someone can check and see if anyone else has 4 receivers likely rto catch betwee 60 and 120 balls or more (projection).

Besides them, we have Ocho, Woodhead Faulk, Ridley and Edelman, plus BJ and Slater, who i don't consider to be polished receivers. ...and we haven't thrown a ball to Vereen yet, or really seen what Price can do.

In my youth, it was all about the long pass and QBs had completion percentages in the 40s and 50s. That changed a long time ago. Not saying a deep threat doesn't help, but it's way overrated in the type of offense we successfully run. It's also hard to learn and lots of receivers either can't, or don't want to pick it up, so I'd rather be patient. we,ve got a lot of guys who can produce in the passing game and the best QB to utilize multiple receivers.

So your point had nothing to do with what the person was posting about, and Cassel had less than nothing to do with what the person was posting about.

Given that, why bother quoting that person's post?
 
"Hands of stone" or not, it is clear that Belichick trusts Slater (a vet) over Price, who still seems a long way off and hasn't been able to get on the field.

Slater has been able to get behind his man the few times he's been in at WR the last couple of years. I have a feeling he will see some reps at WR, with a couple of set plays for him, as he should be one-on-one with no safety shading his way. A deep threat is not overrated and BB might be cooking up something to exploit Asante's tendency to jump routs if they put him on Slater.
 
I dont think its necessarily someone who can go deep we need, but someone who can beat man/press coverage with their speed/athleticism and play the sidelines which helps open up the middle of the field...I think Belichick knew that was our weakness hence why he traded for Ocho(although it hasnt really worked out). alot of bradys sacks are coverage sacks because no one is open.

Deion Branch certainly has been a productive receiver for us and is a product of the system of what you are saying Rayclay. he was pretty average in seattle, comes back here and immediately his production jumps

hes quietly putting together a solid season. but, like Welker, Gronk, Hernandez...he operates in the slot...and defenses are starting to clog the middle of the field...it just adds a different dimension to the offense and would make it much deadlier.

its crazy to me watching these teams playing rookie WR's to success like baltimore. just lobbing up balls for them to catch. and the pats dont have that...hopefully Price can show some promise tomorrow

Fans here tend to want things they see work somewhere else without regard to the fact that they might not work at all here or not work consistently enough to be counted on. We did OK with the just lob it up there offense in 2007 until it really mattered. From almost then on it didn't work nearly as well as it has to if you want to actually win it all.
 
Why do you leave out Branch?

I simply stated that since the 2006-2007 offseason, we have not done a good job at "shopping" for the position of WR. I am not arguing on behalf of one side or another in terms of the effectiveness of the WR position.

If you consider Joey Galloway, Chad Ochocinco and Torry Holt as "good" free agent pickups, then that is your opinion, and I am fine with that.
 
Your point is valid, RayClay. But what needs to be remembered about those passing teams of 2001-2004 is that we had a much more pressuring and potent defense, along with some other factors that have changed too.

To be fair, I think you have to look at the entire team, to chart its strengths and weaknesses. The success of the passing game and Reche Caldwell in 2006 was not just due to the WR's specifically. We still had a pretty decent defense at times, and some veteran leadership and experienced players in other areas.

In other words, our offense is our bread and butter...by far. We have one of the greatest weapons on that side of the ball, and that aspect also masks our defensive flaws. In the yrs of 2001-2004, those strong Patriot defenses were allowing points per game in the high teens. Some of those defenses were #1, maybe #2 in certain stats and areas.

Since we obviously don't have that currently, then we'll have to be good with having a middle of the road defense, and a very potent, high-caliber offense at all times. There are teams like the N.Orleans Saints, and Green Bay Packers who are throwing up points and yardage on just about everyone at any given time, whether it's man coverage, zone coverage, whatever...

If we're going to need to score in the early to mid 30's every game, especially in the playoffs with no problem, then the point of having better success at WR versatility comes into play.

There are really both sides to the argument, and I am not really suggesting that you're wrong...just stating what many are thinking in that aspect.

I'm all for the total team concept, but I'm at sea about how a defense helps you complete passes.

Running the ball and controlling the clock have a direct effect, but you pretty much need to hit open receivers and have them gain yardage.
 
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