Some perspective - what they were saying when Milloy was released

[PromisedLand]

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFL/AFC/AFC+East/New+England/Features/2003/hanacek090303.htm

In my three years on board and in charge of the AFC East at Pro Football Weekly, never have I seen such a terrible roster move. The Patriots, who have left me in awe of the way they've mastered the free-agent wires and the salary cap for the majority of those three years, have made a flat out mistake this time.

Milloy's departure leaves a massive, massive void in defensive and team leadership. It's hard to emphasize that enough. He was one of those vocal leaders who demonstrated his leadership skills in the way he played on the field. He even demonstrated these things in practice. Milloy and Law had developed a trash-talking feud during practices with starting QB Tom Brady last year and used to get on each other during drills. Can you tell me that didn't make any of them better players in some way? Milloy's hard work in practice (he's been known to hammer his own teammates in the defensive backfield during drills) certainly sent supremely positive messages to any youngsters who had joined the Pats over the years.

Harrison might develop into another defensive leader, but he cannot step up and be a leader like Milloy was right away because he needs to inherit his teammates' respect first.

 

[PromisedLand]

And what they were saying two years (and two Super Bowls) later...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/peter_king/02/08/mmqb.milloy/index.html

 

[shmessy]

PL, that Peter King column says it all.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Yeah - my initial reaction to the trade was to remind people of the same thing.

It's actually a very different situation though - unless my memory is failing me, Milloy was not holding out during camp. He was playing, making noise about a contract extension even though I think he was earning in excess of $5 million (at least on the cap).

Also the Patriots did not trade him - they simply released him, taking the cap savings.

Additionally, we had a starting safety already in the fold - although at the time some questioned what Rodney Harrison still had in the tank.

Since we didn't really need the cap savings and Milloy wasn't holding out, its still a head scratcher why the move was made, even though it worked out great in the end.

Logically I think the team was sending a message to all the players - and additionally it may have been that BB didn't want Milloy to be a distraction during the season - not that I think he would have been.

In the Branch situation, there is NO QUESTION that trading Branch was the best thing for the team.

His absence would have been a weekly distraction, with every sub-par receiving game (last week's was Brady's worst performance in quite some time) resulting in questions about Deion.

Additionally we got a #1 pick for Branch - not all that easy to come by these days - whereas we got nothing for Milloy.

Of course, the most significance difference here is that we DON'T have a #1 WR starter on the roster to replace Branch like we did with Milloy - but given the other factors, I think most saavy Patriots fans realize that trading Branch was the best move for the team.

 

[Brownfan80]

It's also different in that we had a proven commodity as Milloy's replacement. Unless you're counting Troy Brown, there is no proven commodity to fill Deion's shoes as a dependable #1 WR.

 

[Bella*chick]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for posting this.

People have probably forgotten, due to incredible success since this move, but this move was 10 times more shocking and upsetting and hard to figure out than the Branch one. Yet some are acting like the players are simply going to throw in the towel and go cry in a fetal position. It's incredible how we can talk about learning from history, yet fail to do it. I wish there was some way of retrieving the messageboard on Boston.com after the move and the first Buffalo game...I'm not sure there was one positive post.

A little perspective can go a long way.

 

[marty]

I vividly remember those days and the summer of ongoing negotiations with Milloy. Often wondered, given the speed to which he signed with Buffalo, if there wasn't some tampering going on there too!

 

[mgteich]

The firing of Milloy in the last week of training camp was a turning point for the patriots. IMHO, the relationship between management and the players was changed forever. The players were furious, including Bruschi and ended up apologizing publicly. The players realized in the week after that the patriots are very well run business, period; the best run sports business in the country, but a business. The players will and should do what is best for them. T-E-A-M is important to the players to the degree that it helps the patriots win, and furthers the future salaries and incentives of the players and the future revenue of the organization.

Don't get me wrong, players will work together as a team, but not because of loyalty to the patriots, perhaps with exception of the very few for their own personal reasons.

The deals for Seymour and Brady were good business decisions for the players and for the front office.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Yeah - my initial reaction to the trade was to remind people of the same thing.

It's actually a very different situation though - unless my memory is failing me...

...Additionally, we had a starting safety already in the fold - although at the time some questioned what Rodney Harrison still had in the tank.

Of course, the most significance difference here is that we DON'T have a #1 WR starter on the roster to replace Branch like we did with Milloy - but given the other factors, I think most saavy Patriots fans realize that trading Branch was the best move for the team.

jsp,

I'm not sure the situation is all that different. Deon Branch was a #1 - #2 WR drafted with a #2 draft pick. Givens was a slower possesion #7 draft WR but with "grit". He had the athletic talent of a 7th pick not a #2,balanced by his effort.

On the roster is a a rookie drafted with a high #2 draft pick. And on the roster is a four year vet was drafted with a high #2 draft pick. Caldwell was ready to blossom before he got hurt and lost the last year and 3/4, recovering from a blown ACL. There is a 4th round draft pick who got to be the #2 WR on a team loaded with WRs, including a potential HOF WR who called him the #2, along with the Coaches and much of the his fellow Raiders.

The talent is there; just as it was in the Milloy case. Everyone wants instant answers. Belichick doesn't work that way. His Teams are always stronger at the end of the season going in to the playoffs, than they are at the beginning of the season. He is always building, even during the season.

It would be one thing if the roster were barren with none to replace Branch; but such is not the case. Potentially, it is stronger than with Branch and Givens.

It has always been that way. Otherwise BB would never play raw rookies like Warren, Wilfolk, Mankins and now O'Callaghan. By the end of their rookie seasons the Team was better with them playing.

Relax everybody. By the time the season is more than half over the WRs will be a strength, and so will the Offensive line. :rocker:

 

[shmessy]

The firing of Milloy in the last week of training camp was a turning point for the patriots. IMHO, the relationship between management and the players was changed forever. The players were furious, including Bruschi and ended up apologizing publicly. The players realized in the week after that the patriots are very well run business, period; the best run sports business in the country, but a business. The players will and should do what is best for them. T-E-A-M is important to the players to the degree that it helps the patriots win, and furthers the future salaries and incentives of the players and the future revenue of the organization.

Don't get me wrong, players will work together as a team, but not because of loyalty to the patriots, perhaps with exception of the very few for their own personal reasons.

The deals for Seymour and Brady were good business decisions for the players and for the front office.

Funny you mention Bruschi as one who was furious.

How'd that affect his next contract negotiation stance with the FO?

 

[mgteich]

I mention Bruschi because it was he who made the statements to the press, holding nothing back.

Bruschi is one of the players who has voluntarily taken less money than he could have gotten elsewhere. He makes his personal choices, and money apparently plays a relatively small part. But, Bruschi is the exception. We can all judge whether McGinist makes better business decisions than McGinist. In the end, IMO, the issue is a personal one, not for me to judge. I have no question what I would do, but that isn't really very relevant.

Funny you mention Bruschi as one who was furious.

How'd that affect his next contract negotiation stance with the FO?

 

[JoeSixPat]

jsp,

I'm not sure the situation is all that different. Deon Branch was a #1 - #2 WR drafted with a #2 draft pick. Givens was a slower possesion #7 draft WR but with "grit". He had the athletic talent of a 7th pick not a #2,balanced by his effort.

On the roster is a a rookie drafted with a high #2 draft pick. And on the roster is a four year vet was drafted with a high #2 draft pick. Caldwell was ready to blossom before he got hurt and lost the last year and 3/4, recovering from a blown ACL. There is a 4th round draft pick who got to be the #2 WR on a team loaded with WRs, including a potential HOF WR who called him the #2, along with the Coaches and much of the his fellow Raiders.

The talent is there; just as it was in the Milloy case. Everyone wants instant answers. Belichick doesn't work that way. His Teams are always stronger at the end of the season going in to the playoffs, than they are at the beginning of the season. He is always building, even during the season.

It would be one thing if the roster were barren with none to replace Branch; but such is not the case. Potentially, it is stronger than with Branch and Givens.

It has always been that way. Otherwise BB would never play raw rookies like Warren, Wilfolk, Mankins and now O'Callaghan. By the end of their rookie seasons the Team was better with them playing.

Relax everybody. By the time the season is more than half over the WRs will be a strength, and so will the Offensive line. :rocker:

I wasn't really concerned with where they were drafted - just stating what I thought was accepted. Branch was our #1 WR and Givens was our #2 WR.

Where they were drafted is irrelevant once they start playing.

Sorry, but the Branch situation is very different - actually its a better situation in terms of the compensation we got for Branch as opposed to none for Milloy

But worse in terms of the replacement for each player - at least until they prove it on the field. Harrison was generally accepted as Milloy's equal - and turned out to be better.

Unlike Harrison, Caldwell is definately NOT a former Pro-Bowler, and has a career high of 28 catches.

Right now his career catch total equals Deion's from last year.

I hope he has a great year but I just can't delude myself that Caldwell = Harrison in comparing the Milloy situation to Branch.

 

[mgteich]

Although it doesn't matter much, I think Caldwell replaced Givens and Gabriel replaces Branch.

I wasn't really concerned with where they were drafted - just stating what I thought was accepted. Branch was our #1 WR and Givens was our #2 WR.

Where they were drafted is irrelevant once they start playing.

Sorry, but the Branch situation is very different - actually its a better situation in terms of the compensation we got for Branch as opposed to none for Milloy

But worse in terms of the replacement for each player - at least until they prove it on the field. Harrison was generally accepted as Milloy's equal - and turned out to be better.

Unlike Harrison, Caldwell is definately NOT a former Pro-Bowler, and has a career high of 28 catches.

Right now his career catch total equals Deion's from last year.

I hope he has a great year but I just can't delude myself that Caldwell = Harrison in comparing the Milloy situation to Branch.

 

[shmessy]

I mention Bruschi because it was he who made the statements to the press, holding nothing back.

Bruschi is one of the players who has voluntarily taken less money than he could have gotten elsewhere. He makes his personal choices, and money apparently plays a relatively small part. But, Bruschi is the exception. We can all judge whether McGinist makes better business decisions than McGinist. In the end, IMO, the issue is a personal one, not for me to judge. I have no question what I would do, but that isn't really very relevant.

Exactly, MG. My point was that, despite being angry and upset the day of, it does NOT necessarily mean that the other players will automatically sour their positions on whether to stay with the organization (or, in Bruschi's example, give the businesslike organization a hometown discount).

 

[JoeSixPat]

Although it doesn't matter much, I think Caldwell replaced Givens and Gabriel replaces Branch.

Well, I guess no one's done either yet, though that's what we all hope.

Same comparison though - Gabriel has great upside even though the Raiders let him go for 5th round pick - but let's not get our hopes too high that a guy with 71 career receptions will replace a guy with 78 last year alone.

The prudent assumption is that past performance equals current performance - generally it balances out as in some cases they do worse and in some cases they do better.

Lots of the same people here assuring us that Jackson, Caldwell and Gabriel will double their career numbers this year alone were the same ones that predicted Bethel Johnson and PK Sam were going to have breakout years last season.

I just think its best not to assume the best case scenario and be prepared for the worst - that's how you win Super Bowls IMHO.

 

[FloridaPatsFan]

Thanks for starting this thread.....

I think we were all shocked that Milloy was cut. And after the Buffalo rout to start the season, we were all questioning BB.

But suddenly, Rodney Harrison started to make his presence felt. I can look back now and know for fact that BB knew that we would be OK and Rodney was a natural born leader....By midseason Milloy was playing for a bad team and doing nothing on the field and we were on our way to another superbowl. Question BB for trading Deion? Not me.

BB is on to something here. Everyone in the league is shaking thier heads in disbelief that we got a #1 pick for Branch. BB has seen enough to know that he has players that are going to be very good for us.

Jackson and Gabriel. Deion will be but a distant memory by midseason.