Some insight into Pats' Linebacker needs

[RayClay]

By the way, McGinest was drafted as a DE by Parcells who was playing a 4-3 defense.

I would agree that McGinest was drafted to be an actual DE, though I think they still planned to move him around as an elephant before he finally became an actual LB.

Outside of Ted Johnson, every linebacker that's played more than a few years was a college DE, so there isn't much precedent for drafting an actual linebacker.

 

[RayClay]

OK, let's say that Bruschi and Seau retire together. We will then have three starters for 2008: Thomas and Colvin outside and Vrabel inside.

We have been developing several kids. Outside, we all hope that Woods would be able to move up to be the backup #3 OLB. IMHO, he is a better prospect than Banta-Cain at this point in his career. So, we could be fine outside with the addition of the usual jag veteran or rookie prospect.

So, where are we inside? Indeed we would be looking to fill two spots. Could any of the players that bb has been developing work out? Do we dare hope?

Mays? Alexander? Lua?

I think that Alexander could indeed be ready to have significant amount of reps.
=============================

So, we would be where we are EVERY year. We would be hoping that one or two of the youngsters work out. And, we would be looking at the draft. And then we would be looking at free agency for veterans.
===============================

This strategy has failed ONCE in the bb era. It took a stroke, a retirement and two (or was it three) free agents not to work out. Not to mention Colvin's injury.
================================

And yes, 2008 could be the year we overpay (value-wise)and take a chance on a Day One linebacker, or we could trade for one.
================================

My bottom line is that we will be in fine shape to fill any need at linebacker in 2008, even if Bruschi retires. We have four solid young prospects. We will have five Day One draft picks. And there is always free agency and trade possibilities.

Seems like wishful thinking to me.

I think they grab 2 FAs somehow. I like Woods, by the way, so it's not like I'm slamming everybody.

Just seems like everybody's a natural OLB and I'm not as impressed, (without much evidence either way, I'll admit), with the ILBs.

 

[RayClay]

Could the entire answer here simply be that of all positions, the hardest to predict, based on their body of work in college, workouts, combines, etc, is LB? I know that college QBs are asked to do a lot of what we would ask them to. OL and DL are as well. (Remember before Seymour, Wilfork, and Warren BB teams NEVER had highly drafted DLineman. These 3 happened to be great fits in a one gap system AND great fits in a 2gap system) WR, RB, TE, corners, safeties, all have to do many of the things in college that they do in the NFL on any team.
How many college LBs can you look at on film and see what they will do if asked to take on Gs and play 2gap run D? 95% of of college LBs are playing a system that asks them to avoid blockers.
It almost makes sense to let another team figure out if they can hold up to being blocked by 320 lbs Gs when there is no history of them doing it before.

I agree with this completely. The Al Groh article bouncing around references the same thing.

I guess my position is they have to get younger somehow, if they like a Bradley in round 3, maybe they need to trade up. I know, it's unpredictable, but I am in no way suggesting round 1 picks for DE/ILB converts.

The only thought would have for a round one would be a devastainf physical specimen to replace McGinest and we got A.D. for that, (physical athlete, if different.

I would have to differ on the DL thing, though. BB had a poor team and the vet 4 man line was one of the best parts. His second draft he got seymour and he certainly was looking DL Warren's year. He got lucky with Wilfork.

He's on record saying you can't afford athletic 300 LBers in free agency because they're rare so he targets them. Even with three potential all pros he draft Hill, Kareem Brown, LeKevin and trades for Jonathan Sullivan.

 

[Ring 6]

I agree with this completely. The Al Groh article bouncing around references the same thing.

I guess my position is they have to get younger somehow, if they like a Bradley in round 3, maybe they need to trade up. I know, it's unpredictable, but I am in no way suggesting round 1 picks for DE/ILB converts.

The only thought would have for a round one would be a devastainf physical specimen to replace McGinest and we got A.D. for that, (physical athlete, if different.

I would have to differ on the DL thing, though. BB had a poor team and the vet 4 man line was one of the best parts. His second draft he got seymour and he certainly was looking DL Warren's year. He got lucky with Wilfork.

He's on record saying you can't afford athletic 300 LBers in free agency because they're rare so he targets them. Even with three potential all pros he draft Hill, Kareem Brown, LeKevin and trades for Jonathan Sullivan.

Before drafting Seymour, Warren and Wilfork (all of whom proved to better than they were rated pre-draft by the way) BBs defenses in NY, Cleveland and here, always had DLs that were late picks, FA pickups, jag vets. I distinctly remember prior to the Warren pick that there were many calling for DL in the draft and many that looked at BBs history and felt he did not place value in high picks on the DL.
Now, that history was clearly based on the wide difference between one gap DL (which most teams wanted) and two gap DLs which were easier to find, but much harder to project from the college game, where 2 gap is almost unheardof.
It does seem very similar to the current LB position. IMO, we ended up with 1 picks on the DL (outside of Seymour who IMO was just too good to not draft) because in both of those drafts there were a ton of 1st round DLs, and as it worked out the best twogap DLs fell to us late in round 1. If the majority of teams played 2gap rather than 1gap systems, Warren and Wilfork would have gone much higher in their drafts, and the guys who were strong one gap guys would have fallen to us and BB would have passed on DL and built it another way.
I think there is a similar phenomenon at the LB position. However, it is much harder to project ILBs from their college work than DLs. In other words, its easier to envision a 320 lb DL playing w gap and fighting off blocks of 320 lb OL than it is to project a 240 lb LB being able to take on Gs when he was never asked to do it on the film you have to analyze him from.

There have been dozens of cases where there were LBs on the board (Harris was an example this year) that projected to be good NFL LBs and were rated high enough to be drafted in our slot by teams that play a different style of defense, yet BB simply passed. The 'draft ratings' of college LBs are based on very different skills that what we ask them to do here. So while it would seem that 'we could have Harris, and he's a good LB' we may have passed on him all the way through to day 2 simply because his skills do not translate into our system, but by day 2 maybe its worth taking a shot. When you take that over a whole draft its not unreasonable to think that most college ILBs have a draft grade a full round or more higher with teams that play a defense that asks him to run to the ball and avoid blocks than with a team that says step up, take on the G and you will get no help keeping him off of you.
As I said before when you are asking 240 lb LBs to do this when they have never been asked to before, I would imagine its much more likely to doubt they can do it than be confident.

The other thing is that while it is true that more teams are playing the 3-4, many of them play it from a one-gap system. (SD, Pitt, Bmore are good examples). The alignment is the same but the responsibilities differ.
The answer may simply be that ILB in a 2gap 3-4 defense is a unique position that requires unique skills, and therefore requires a non-standard way of finding good players to play it. OLB in our system is probably close to as unique, because the one-gap 3-4 also ask different responsibilities of their OLBs, so their guys are smaller and faster than our bigger stronger requirements.

 

[Patriotic Fervor]

Before drafting Seymour, Warren and Wilfork (all of whom proved to better than they were rated pre-draft by the way) BBs defenses in NY, Cleveland and here, always had DLs that were late picks, FA pickups, jag vets. I distinctly remember prior to the Warren pick that there were many calling for DL in the draft and many that looked at BBs history and felt he did not place value in high picks on the DL.
Now, that history was clearly based on the wide difference between one gap DL (which most teams wanted) and two gap DLs which were easier to find, but much harder to project from the college game, where 2 gap is almost unheardof.
It does seem very similar to the current LB position. IMO, we ended up with 1 picks on the DL (outside of Seymour who IMO was just too good to not draft) because in both of those drafts there were a ton of 1st round DLs, and as it worked out the best twogap DLs fell to us late in round 1. If the majority of teams played 2gap rather than 1gap systems, Warren and Wilfork would have gone much higher in their drafts, and the guys who were strong one gap guys would have fallen to us and BB would have passed on DL and built it another way.
I think there is a similar phenomenon at the LB position. However, it is much harder to project ILBs from their college work than DLs. In other words, its easier to envision a 320 lb DL playing w gap and fighting off blocks of 320 lb OL than it is to project a 240 lb LB being able to take on Gs when he was never asked to do it on the film you have to analyze him from.

There have been dozens of cases where there were LBs on the board (Harris was an example this year) that projected to be good NFL LBs and were rated high enough to be drafted in our slot by teams that play a different style of defense, yet BB simply passed. The 'draft ratings' of college LBs are based on very different skills that what we ask them to do here. So while it would seem that 'we could have Harris, and he's a good LB' we may have passed on him all the way through to day 2 simply because his skills do not translate into our system, but by day 2 maybe its worth taking a shot. When you take that over a whole draft its not unreasonable to think that most college ILBs have a draft grade a full round or more higher with teams that play a defense that asks him to run to the ball and avoid blocks than with a team that says step up, take on the G and you will get no help keeping him off of you.
As I said before when you are asking 240 lb LBs to do this when they have never been asked to before, I would imagine its much more likely to doubt they can do it than be confident.

The other thing is that while it is true that more teams are playing the 3-4, many of them play it from a one-gap system. (SD, Pitt, Bmore are good examples). The alignment is the same but the responsibilities differ.
The answer may simply be that ILB in a 2gap 3-4 defense is a unique position that requires unique skills, and therefore requires a non-standard way of finding good players to play it. OLB in our system is probably close to as unique, because the one-gap 3-4 also ask different responsibilities of their OLBs, so their guys are smaller and faster than our bigger stronger requirements.

Yes! Most insightful!

 

[RayClay]

Before drafting Seymour, Warren and Wilfork (all of whom proved to better than they were rated pre-draft by the way) BBs defenses in NY, Cleveland and here, always had DLs that were late picks, FA pickups, jag vets. I distinctly remember prior to the Warren pick that there were many calling for DL in the draft and many that looked at BBs history and felt he did not place value in high picks on the DL.
Now, that history was clearly based on the wide difference between one gap DL (which most teams wanted) and two gap DLs which were easier to find, but much harder to project from the college game, where 2 gap is almost unheardof.
It does seem very similar to the current LB position. IMO, we ended up with 1 picks on the DL (outside of Seymour who IMO was just too good to not draft) because in both of those drafts there were a ton of 1st round DLs, and as it worked out the best twogap DLs fell to us late in round 1. If the majority of teams played 2gap rather than 1gap systems, Warren and Wilfork would have gone much higher in their drafts, and the guys who were strong one gap guys would have fallen to us and BB would have passed on DL and built it another way.
I think there is a similar phenomenon at the LB position. However, it is much harder to project ILBs from their college work than DLs. In other words, its easier to envision a 320 lb DL playing w gap and fighting off blocks of 320 lb OL than it is to project a 240 lb LB being able to take on Gs when he was never asked to do it on the film you have to analyze him from.

There have been dozens of cases where there were LBs on the board (Harris was an example this year) that projected to be good NFL LBs and were rated high enough to be drafted in our slot by teams that play a different style of defense, yet BB simply passed. The 'draft ratings' of college LBs are based on very different skills that what we ask them to do here. So while it would seem that 'we could have Harris, and he's a good LB' we may have passed on him all the way through to day 2 simply because his skills do not translate into our system, but by day 2 maybe its worth taking a shot. When you take that over a whole draft its not unreasonable to think that most college ILBs have a draft grade a full round or more higher with teams that play a defense that asks him to run to the ball and avoid blocks than with a team that says step up, take on the G and you will get no help keeping him off of you.
As I said before when you are asking 240 lb LBs to do this when they have never been asked to before, I would imagine its much more likely to doubt they can do it than be confident.

The other thing is that while it is true that more teams are playing the 3-4, many of them play it from a one-gap system. (SD, Pitt, Bmore are good examples). The alignment is the same but the responsibilities differ.
The answer may simply be that ILB in a 2gap 3-4 defense is a unique position that requires unique skills, and therefore requires a non-standard way of finding good players to play it. OLB in our system is probably close to as unique, because the one-gap 3-4 also ask different responsibilities of their OLBs, so their guys are smaller and faster than our bigger stronger requirements.

Regarding the preference for drafting DLinemen high, I couldn't find BB's exact quote but he definitely gave a variation of this in an interview when asked about his draft philosophy, specifically first round. It might have been a new philosophy, but he was quite unequivocal:

"GM Mike Tannenbaum and coach Eric Mangini seem to subscribe to George Young's "Planet Theory." The late Giants GM placed a higher value on big men because he felt there were only a finite number of 300-pound football players walking the planet."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2007/04/25/2007-04-25_jets_weigh_heavy_options.html

We certainly agree that the ILB position is difficult to fill. Bruschi was drafted in the third as an undersized pass rushing DE, used as a pass rush specialist, then OLB, the finally ILB.

Chad Brown wasn't successful at converting to ILB, though he'd played inside some at Pitt. Beisel didn't even try to tackle people after a while.

While we agree on the problem, I think they will explore all types of solutions. Barring two affordable DE/ILB converts becoming available, (the ideal), wouldn't an innovative coach such as BB explore other avenues?

It wasn't too long ago that "never would draft a first round lineman or running back" was the mantra.

Obviously the draft is a crap shoot, but a bad draft pick is less costly than an expensive free agent mistake.

I'm all in favor of picking up 2 young ILBs from other teams. Just point out where and when they will be available.

 

[Ring 6]

Regarding the preference for drafting DLinemen high, I couldn't find BB's exact quote but he definitely gave a variation of this in an interview when asked about his draft philosophy, specifically first round. It might have been a new philosophy, but he was quite unequivocal:

"GM Mike Tannenbaum and coach Eric Mangini seem to subscribe to George Young's "Planet Theory." The late Giants GM placed a higher value on big men because he felt there were only a finite number of 300-pound football players walking the planet."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2007/04/25/2007-04-25_jets_weigh_heavy_options.html

We certainly agree that the ILB position is difficult to fill. Bruschi was drafted in the third as an undersized pass rushing DE, used as a pass rush specialist, then OLB, the finally ILB.

Chad Brown wasn't successful at converting to ILB, though he'd played inside some at Pitt. Beisel didn't even try to tackle people after a while.

While we agree on the problem, I think they will explore all types of solutions. Barring two affordable DE/ILB converts becoming available, (the ideal), wouldn't an innovative coach such as BB explore other avenues?

It wasn't too long ago that "never would draft a first round lineman or running back" was the mantra.

Obviously the draft is a crap shoot, but a bad draft pick is less costly than an expensive free agent mistake.

I'm all in favor of picking up 2 young ILBs from other teams. Just point out where and when they will be available.

Again, I think this is where you are looking at it backwards.
You are clear on what you want to go get and how you want to get it, but that assumes it is there.

I think its the total opposite of that.
Rather than drawing a blueprint for what you want, when and how to get it (i.e. no OL or RB in the first, etc) then reach for the closest thing, I think it is a case of finding players that fit through the draft, then filling in with FA.
I think BBs philosophy is you draft the best player for your system regardless of need (obviously factoring in that you do not draft someone you have absolutely no need for, like a starting round 1 QB right now) then surround them through FA, or developing younger players.

I think we see it very similarly except that you seem to be assuming you can fill any need in the draft, and I seem to think its better to not draft a position than to draft a guy who doesnt fit what you want (at the level he would need to play to justify picking him over the best player on the board, even at a position of lesser need)

 

[cstjohn17]

The other thing is that while it is true that more teams are playing the 3-4, many of them play it from a one-gap system. (SD, Pitt, Bmore are good examples). The alignment is the same but the responsibilities differ.
The answer may simply be that ILB in a 2gap 3-4 defense is a unique position that requires unique skills, and therefore requires a non-standard way of finding good players to play it. OLB in our system is probably close to as unique, because the one-gap 3-4 also ask different responsibilities of their OLBs, so their guys are smaller and faster than our bigger stronger requirements.

I dn't think the OLB requirements are that different from other 3-4 teams but there does seem to a big difference at ILB.

The Patriots have had the luxury of a very deep veteran LB core for most of their recent run, this has decreased the urgency of drafting LBs high. At OLB they have acquired a lot of veteran FAs (Vrabel, Colvin, Thomas - 3 of the top 10 highest paid players) but have not been as aggressive at ILB, even with TJ and Phifer retiring the sought second tier veterans like Gartner, Chad Brown, Beisel and Seau. Seau turned out to great, the others kinda stunk.

With a 1 out of 4 success rate my preference would be to add some younger players at the position through the draft. It will be interesting to see how Magini's ILBs fair (Anthony Schlegel , 3rd round 2005 & Harris, round 2 2006) also Cleveland plays a similar style (Leon Williams, Jackson were recent draft picks.

 

[Ring 6]

Regarding the preference for drafting DLinemen high, I couldn't find BB's exact quote but he definitely gave a variation of this in an interview when asked about his draft philosophy, specifically first round. It might have been a new philosophy, but he was quite unequivocal:

"GM Mike Tannenbaum and coach Eric Mangini seem to subscribe to George Young's "Planet Theory." The late Giants GM placed a higher value on big men because he felt there were only a finite number of 300-pound football players walking the planet."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/2007/04/25/2007-04-25_jets_weigh_heavy_options.html

We certainly agree that the ILB position is difficult to fill. Bruschi was drafted in the third as an undersized pass rushing DE, used as a pass rush specialist, then OLB, the finally ILB.

Chad Brown wasn't successful at converting to ILB, though he'd played inside some at Pitt. Beisel didn't even try to tackle people after a while.

While we agree on the problem, I think they will explore all types of solutions. Barring two affordable DE/ILB converts becoming available, (the ideal), wouldn't an innovative coach such as BB explore other avenues?

It wasn't too long ago that "never would draft a first round lineman or running back" was the mantra.

Obviously the draft is a crap shoot, but a bad draft pick is less costly than an expensive free agent mistake.

I'm all in favor of picking up 2 young ILBs from other teams. Just point out where and when they will be available.

Also regardless of a Mangini comment, or something you remember BB saying (IIRC his quote was when you have the combination of big and fast there aren't a lot of guys who are both, so you need to take them early when you can get them) if you look at the defenses BB coached, prior to about 2004 when Warren became a starter and Wilfork was drafted, historically, his DLs were built on lower 'pedigree' guys. Look back at all his years with the Giants. Most of his 3-4 DL were lower round picks, udfa, veteran jags, etc. But there they did draft LBs high.

I just cringe when I hear the comments about different positions being more or less important, and that BB wouldn't draft or sign a big FA at those positions. I just see no evidence.
In Cleveland he drafted a FB with the 7th overall pick. He drafted a
LB in the first round.

Prior to this year, safety was a position people said wasnt worthy of a BB #1, before last year it was RB, before 05 it was OL.

The difference to me is too many fans make their personal assessment of need, and conclude when it isn't filled with a high draft pick that BB devalues that position. With QB, RB, WR, T, G/C, DT, DE, OLB, ILB, CB, S as the 11 position groupings, I dont know how not choosing any one in any year is a statement of opinion on the value of the position, but clearly to me seems to be a statement of who the best football player to draft would be.
Aside from QB, and the last 2 years DL, I do not see a position on that list that we couldn't have 'used' a #1 talent in any draft.
If we look at the positions he has drafted with disregard for who the players are, you could argue that he places no value at CB, only saw value at S this year, OL once (there are 5 OL spots after all) LB never, etc.
Using that approach would infer that BB sees RB, DE, DT, TE as the only truly important positions on the field, and OL or S are kind of important but not necessary, and all the other positions including LB dont matter.
Seeing his coaching, his systems, his gameplans, his strategy, that last sentence seems totally bizarre.

 

[RayClay]

The difference to me is too many fans make their personal assessment of need, and conclude when it isn't filled with a high draft pick that BB devalues that position.

Great post. Just editing for efficiency.

I don't think I said he "values" the linebacker position less and I think a lot of people misunderstand what he means by value.

He's got jobs to do and linebackers who've proved able to slug it out with NFL offensive linemen are preferrable to unknown quantities.

In our 3-4, the lateral speed valued in college LBs isn't very important so any college linebacker rankings aren't important to us.

I'm certainly not a draft expert and if I was, I couldn't guess which DEs or linebackers would project in our system.

I also think he believes it's worth stockpiling DL talent rather than trying to fill these positions through free agency given the price tag of the best.

These are what I perceive as tendencies, nothing more. An innovative front office like ours will change tactics as situations change.

Certainly our recent draft and free agent spree reflected a change from previous years.

 

[captain stone]

My 2 cents:

RayClay is 100% correct to question not only the worthiness of our ILB backups, but also the methods used to evaluate and acquire them.

There is a flaw in the FO, and that flaw turned tragic on January 21st.

Until Seau re-signed, we could "boast" of having the worst collection, easliy, of backup LBs in football. We still might, but we are certainly better than we were one week ago.

That was a heart-warming puff piece on Mays by the ND rag, Mr. Box, but I'm still not buying what it's selling. As DaBruinz mentioned, Mays is a ST penalty waiting to happen, and has no history of positional excellence in college. Neither did Alexander, and it shows. And in what sick Twilight Zone does the never-was Oscar Lua get drafted before Brandon Siler? That pick, like the rest of the entire draft weekend, was an insult. Last, and certainly least, Larry Izzo is an over-rated, over-the-hill STer who is less than useless on defense.

Those, ladies and germs, were your NEP backup ILBs. Fortunately, Seau will make one (or 2 or 3) of them superfluous. Also, Isaiah Kacyvenski and Liam Ezekial are still available, amoung others. And I would have drafted Karlos Dansby instead of Ben Watson.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

ILB seems harder to fill then the OLB.

Bruschi moved inside.
Phifer moved inside.
Vrabel moved inside.

Mark my words, eventually at some point after some years in the system, AD will move inside. People will say the same thing when Vrabel moved inside, "it is a waste ... his best talent is on the outside..." But it will happen.

 

[Ring 6]

I dn't think the OLB requirements are that different from other 3-4 teams but there does seem to a big difference at ILB.

The Patriots have had the luxury of a very deep veteran LB core for most of their recent run, this has decreased the urgency of drafting LBs high. At OLB they have acquired a lot of veteran FAs (Vrabel, Colvin, Thomas - 3 of the top 10 highest paid players) but have not been as aggressive at ILB, even with TJ and Phifer retiring the sought second tier veterans like Gartner, Chad Brown, Beisel and Seau. Seau turned out to great, the others kinda stunk.

With a 1 out of 4 success rate my preference would be to add some younger players at the position through the draft. It will be interesting to see how Magini's ILBs fair (Anthony Schlegel , 3rd round 2005 & Harris, round 2 2006) also Cleveland plays a similar style (Leon Williams, Jackson were recent draft picks.

Well, our OLBs are required to play 2 gap first, then 'freelance' or rush the passer later. Guys like Terrell Suggs, or Joey Porter, or Merriman have one job...rush the passer. Our OLB are typically bigger than other 3-4 teams, because of the premium we place on their 2gap run D. We sacrifice speed for that. We do not ask them to rush the passer every down like the 3 above. There are certainly differences in what we ask them to do.

Here is the thing about 3-4 ILBs though. Where is the team with a good 3-4 OLB group that is made up of high draft picks they developed themselves? I think if you look around you'll see some high picks who are the pass rush specialists, but other than that, and especially at ILB, I dont see the model of drafting LBs high to build a good 3-4.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

the never-was Oscar Lua get drafted before Brandon Siler

Wow ... I am glad you, the authority on all matters, could help clue us in on that one.

 

[cstjohn17]

Well, our OLBs are required to play 2 gap first, then 'freelance' or rush the passer later. Guys like Terrell Suggs, or Joey Porter, or Merriman have one job...rush the passer. Our OLB are typically bigger than other 3-4 teams, because of the premium we place on their 2gap run D. We sacrifice speed for that. We do not ask them to rush the passer every down like the 3 above. There are certainly differences in what we ask them to do.

Here is the thing about 3-4 ILBs though. Where is the team with a good 3-4 OLB group that is made up of high draft picks they developed themselves? I think if you look around you'll see some high picks who are the pass rush specialists, but other than that, and especially at ILB, I dont see the model of drafting LBs high to build a good 3-4.

I am not convinced. Our OLBs set the edge against the run, drop into coverage and rush the passer. I don't see Colvin, Thomas and Vrabel being that mush different that the names listed above. All are about the same size. The Patriots may not pin their ears back and rush the QB as much as other teams but the number one skill (as mentioned by BB) for an OLB is the ability to get the QB. Suggs, Porter, Merriman, Ware, etc. would have no trouble playing in our system and were all drafted and developed by their original team.

Teams that seem to be pretty good at drafting and molding 3-4 OLBs (San Diego, Dallas, Pittsburg, Baltimore <-- they play some 3-4)

OLBs seems to be much easier to find, ILBs are almost an impossible combination of size, speed and insanity. No one loves the LB discussion more than me but its ship has sailed, time to find other areas of the roster to critique. The Patriots have one of the top 2-3 LB cores in the league. They may not be young but they can play, we shouldn't worry so much about next year's roster that we diminish this year's squad.

 

[Ring 6]

My 2 cents:

RayClay is 100% correct to question not only the worthiness of our ILB backups, but also the methods used to evaluate and acquire them.

There is a flaw in the FO, and that flaw turned tragic on January 21st.

Until Seau re-signed, we could "boast" of having the worst collection, easliy, of backup LBs in football. We still might, but we are certainly better than we were one week ago.

That was a heart-warming puff piece on Mays by the ND rag, Mr. Box, but I'm still not buying what it's selling. As DaBruinz mentioned, Mays is a ST penalty waiting to happen, and has no history of positional excellence in college. Neither did Alexander, and it shows. And in what sick Twilight Zone does the never-was Oscar Lua get drafted before Brandon Siler? That pick, like the rest of the entire draft weekend, was an insult. Last, and certainly least, Larry Izzo is an over-rated, over-the-hill STer who is less than useless on defense.

Those, ladies and germs, were your NEP backup ILBs. Fortunately, Seau will make one (or 2 or 3) of them superfluous. Also, Isaiah Kacyvenski and Liam Ezekial are still available, amoung others. And I would have drafted Karlos Dansby instead of Ben Watson.

Who are all of these teams with the great backup linebackers?
One rule. They have to have shown they are better than our guys on the field, not in your judgment of the vast difference and stupidity of selecting one 7th round LB that no one wanted for 6 rounds over another 7th round LB that no one wanted for 6 rounds, because the other guy must be better since you know his name.


I would imagine that BB passing on Siler as many times as he did indicates that in BBs judgment Siler wouldnt make our team over all of the guys you think are scrubs. I'm sorry they didnt have a name you recognized in college.
I trust BBs judgment more than yours.

I'll wait to hear about all those teams that have such good backup linebackers.

 

[TheSeymonsta]

I'll wait to hear about all those teams that have such good backup linebackers.

Some of those teams dont need as good back-ups because their starters are not as old and injury prone as the Pats.

I think the only reason people like myself and others are clamoring for good back-ups is because of the age and injury history of our LB's...

 

[Ring 6]

Some of those teams dont need as good back-ups because their starters are not as old and injury prone as the Pats.

I think the only reason people like myself and others are clamoring for good back-ups is because of the age and injury history of our LB's...

My point is there really isnt such a thing as an NFL with good backup LBs. There is a dearth of good LBs in th eleague to begin with, with many starters who arent very good either.
If you are rating our depth, wouldnt you rate it against the other teams in the league's depth? Rather than an unrealistic expectation?

I'm fine with our LB situation.
We have 5 good, reliable and somewhat interchangable players to man what amounts to 3 1/2 positions. (We only use 4 Lbs on half the defensive plays at most)
We have 3 young reserves who were here last year and are developing, and added 2 rookies in the draft.

Are we expecting to have 10 starting quality guys?

Just like any other position on the field, on any team, if we have injuries there will be a drop off. I've never understood why fans expect in a cap era to have a roster than can sustain 3 injuires at the same position and not have a dropoff in talent. It just doesnt happen.

 

[Ring 6]

My point is there really isnt such a thing as an NFL with good backup LBs. There is a dearth of good LBs in th eleague to begin with, with many starters who arent very good either.
If you are rating our depth, wouldnt you rate it against the other teams in the league's depth? Rather than an unrealistic expectation?

I'm fine with our LB situation.
We have 5 good, reliable and somewhat interchangable players to man what amounts to 3 1/2 positions. (We only use 4 Lbs on half the defensive plays at most)
We have 3 young reserves who were here last year and are developing, and added 2 rookies in the draft.

Are we expecting to have 10 starting quality guys?

Just like any other position on the field, on any team, if we have injuries there will be a drop off. I've never understood why fans expect in a cap era to have a roster than can sustain 3 injuires at the same position and not have a dropoff in talent. It just doesnt happen.

By the way, I dont think our depth is at all any worse at LB than our 3 SB Champion teams. Who were the 6th, 7th, 8th LB on those teams that were any better than what we have now? Matt Chatham? He started some games on s SB Champ. Don Davis?

 

[DaBruinz]

My 2 cents:

RayClay is 100% correct to question not only the worthiness of our ILB backups, but also the methods used to evaluate and acquire them.

There is a flaw in the FO, and that flaw turned tragic on January 21st.

Until Seau re-signed, we could "boast" of having the worst collection, easliy, of backup LBs in football. We still might, but we are certainly better than we were one week ago.

That was a heart-warming puff piece on Mays by the ND rag, Mr. Box, but I'm still not buying what it's selling. As DaBruinz mentioned, Mays is a ST penalty waiting to happen, and has no history of positional excellence in college. Neither did Alexander, and it shows. And in what sick Twilight Zone does the never-was Oscar Lua get drafted before Brandon Siler? That pick, like the rest of the entire draft weekend, was an insult. Last, and certainly least, Larry Izzo is an over-rated, over-the-hill STer who is less than useless on defense.

Those, ladies and germs, were your NEP backup ILBs. Fortunately, Seau will make one (or 2 or 3) of them superfluous. Also, Isaiah Kacyvenski and Liam Ezekial are still available, amoung others. And I would have drafted Karlos Dansby instead of Ben Watson.

Captain Stone -
Its very easy to understand why Siler didn't get drafted. Attitude and Lack of ability. And I have no doubt that Siler is a case where BB DID talk to Urban Meyer to get insight on the kid.

I have to disagree with you that the pick of Lua was an insult. You do realize that the only reason Lua lost his starting position at USC was because of injury, yes? Lua replaced Lofa Tatupu in their defense. And, unfortunately, his time off the field due to injury and his selflessness in helping his replacement, caused him to be relegated to the #2 position.

Isaiah Kacyvenski is a good special teamer. But what has Ezekial actually accomplished?

As for Dansby, why? What has he shown to make you think he could actually succeed in the Pats defense?