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Some good insight from Bedard's SB week access

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by MoLewisrocks, Feb 12, 2012.

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  1. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Gives fans who are interested a little more insight as to how the systems inner workings and thought process via his time spent with the assistant coaches and Caserio.

    Only quibble is he can't quite let go of the ball you have to catch yet...

    Also some hints at where they see this value and depth in this draft, what they see for McCourty going forward, and this system note...

    Patriots in good shape with draft preparation - The Boston Globe
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2012
  2. NEP4Life

    NEP4Life Rookie

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    Four points on the route tree to make a decision?

    If we assume 2 options per point, then 1 route is actually 8 possible routes.

    Is that level of complexity more burden than it's worth, because it unduly restricts the pool of available receivers?
  3. Tunescribe

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    I thought this bit was remarkable on Welker being unused to downfield passes:

    Yes, I defended Wes Welker last week, but it wasn’t because I thought Tom Brady was more to blame because of the pass he threw. It was because the oft-used line to explain why Welker should have caught the pass - “It’s a pass he catches all the time’’ - is patently untrue. Welker threw fuel on the fire with his comments after the game, but he was just being a good teammate. Scott Kacsmar of coldhardfootballfacts.com put my research on Welker to shame: He found that of Welker’s 554 receptions since 2007, just 11 (1.99 percent) were thrown 20 yards or more in the air. And one was from Matt Cassel.​

    Well, we have had guys that show it CAN be done, including Randy Moss. Can you imagine what it would be like having Larry Fitzgerald on this team? (One of the brightest players in the league regardless of position.)
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  4. skinnydog

    skinnydog Rookie

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    Ok, so let me get this straight. The route tree receivers have to master is so complex that only Deon Branch gets it and somehow that's an advantage? Ok got it.
  5. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah, and his agents likely want Bedard and CHFF to shut the eff up at this juncture...

    I was just reading a thread over on the planet where someone noted Matt Chatham weighing in on the viability of stats based analysis in football on twitter in response to some of the stuff he was seeing CHFF spouting on Brady. Says Brady has one of the best deep balls in the game and he's seen thousands of 'em and there are too many variables in football to make pronouncements based simply on statistical data. In other words, when it hits you in the hands you have to make the catch... And when your getting hurried, knocked down or sacked on more than 50% of your attempts, a deep thread isn't going to save you. Brady needs an outside threat to stretch the field horizontally. He hasn't got time for vertically although he certainly has the arm for it. Belichick obviously realizes this and he did something to facilitate it this season only it didn't work for non statistical reasons he apparently didn't fully consider.
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  6. Onedaful

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    This had me cracking up. But is it really only Branch "getting it" or like someone else stated is TB not throwing it to Ocho because of lack of chemistry. Regardless I think its still necessary to get another fast, tall receiver to keep the defense honest and run down the sidelines.
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  7. Deus Irae

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    That's just Bedard backtracking some more after his ridiculous explanation which essentially pinned the blame on Brady. We're now supposed to say it's not on Welker, with the result that it's still on Brady (psst.... even though he's not actually saying that), because the ball traveled further in the air.

    Bedard's been pretty good at his job overall, but he's making himself look worse on this matter every time he brings it up.
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  8. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Branch, Givens, Patten, Brown, Welker, Gaffney, Woodhead, even old bug eyes mastered it (he just suffered more from easyitis - the knock on him from SD was he won't make the easy catch in the clutch and that proved to be true). UDFA's like Hoyer and Edleperson (who was a QB) have a pretty solid grasp of it. As did Cassel although his time in KC may have about wrung it out of him. It is an advantage because defenses who see it once or twice a season struggle to counter it. It's like merely average athletic ability meets intangible slight of hand. The alternative is pure athletic domination, but that comes at a cap and draft capital cost and most teams who persue that route don't end up playing in February in part because those players cost so much it's harder to field a competitive team around them and even if they do their skillsets translate to the point they are harder to retain. Because of the dearth of truly cerebral QB's in this league or teams attempting to run this complex a system, our players skillsets don't necessarily translate.

    If you want to draft receivers who will fit this system, step away from the high ceiling low floor raw athletic skills types and focus on the guys who seem to make plays despite the perception that they lack prototypical tools. Those are the guys who find a home in this system because it helps them to alter and often beat limited perception based on sheer athleticism and talent. The others aren't often willing to work at something that heretofore has come naturally to them.

    I will never forget Bill crowing the old coaching adage you can't teach speed when he drafted Chad Jackson. Turns out he was right... Can't make a slow player faster - although you can counter that with coaching that makes him mentally if not physically quicker, but neither can you necessarily make a fast player smarter and if you can't you have nothing here. What the system provides is consistency, but that seldom cuts it for a demanding fan base who want to just win now and worry about later later.
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  9. Va_Pats_Fan

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    This does not mean there are 4 decisions on every route, resulting in 8 possible routes every time. This is an example of the most complex situations. The way it was phrased, sounds like most of the routes are less than that.
  10. MoLewisrocks

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    Moss didn't really do it though. He understood it in theory and had the mental capacity to grasp it, he just lacked the skill set to truly fit in and participate in it. They made an exception for him, for a time, until his production and cost no longer justified that kind of accommodation. Not to say Fitz wouldn't, but at $15M would it really be worth it?
  11. MoLewisrocks

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    Brady is the ultimate equal opportunity chemist. If you get it, you get it...the ball that is.
  12. Ron Sellers

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    As pointed out in other threads, Kacsmar is a self-professed fan of both the Steelers and the Colts, spending plenty of time on KFFL pimping both of those times while bashing the Pats. Bedard would have no way of knowing that, and assumed the column could be taken at face value because CHFF is (or perhaps I should say was) considered to be an unbiased, neutral site.

    I didn't bother to click on the CHFF link (I'm sure there's a camera-gate reference in there somewhere, along with a few other snarky comments about the Pats by Kacsmar), but from 2007 through 2010 the Pats slot receiver (Welker or Edelman) strictly ran short routes per the play calling. In the Pats offense the slot receiver runs different routes than the outside guy (Moss or Branch); that's not exactly earth-shattering news. The Pats saw the way opponents were defending Welker and had Welker run a lot more deeper routes this year, to exploit that. Not surprisingly Kacsmar uses data from 2007 rather than from just this year to make his point.

    The whole 'number of passes over twenty yards' thing is being way over played this past week. Yes, the Pats offense uses shorter passes more than most other offenses do - anybody that watches the game of football should know that. However people are taking that and twisting it into 'Brady can't throw a deep ball', or 'Brady's not as good as Eli or Ben or (fill in the blank) because they throw deep passes', or whatever.

    First of all, if the BOB/Brady short passing game that many deride is so easy, then why don't other teams just copy it and have the same success with it that the Patriots have had? The concept that because many of the passes are shorter therefore means players like Brady or Welker are overrated is ridiculous.

    Second, exactly how many passes thrown over twenty yards in the air does any team make in a single game? I'm talking about in the current NFL now, not when Dan Fouts or John Unitas played, and only the very best quarterbacks completed 50% of their passes. I'm guessing it's about two per game, and probably at least half of them are due to a breakdown by the defense rather than a great play by the offense.

    People have been talking about how the longest play of the game for the Pats was a 21-yard pass to Ochocinco, as if that was an 'OMG, how could that happen' type of thing, but guess what: that was the 2nd longest pass play of the game! Yep, the Giants only had one pass that went further. Of the seven pass plays that went for 19 or more yards, five were by the Pats and only two by the Giants - but I can guarantee Kacsmar doesn't bring that up in his article either.

    The bottom line is that Kacsmar is as unbiased as a typical writer on Bleacher Report, and that he finds stats to drive his agenda, rather than analyzing stats to form a hypothesis and conclusion. This whole 'Brady can't throw a deep ball' talk is just a guy seizing the opportunity to troll from clicks from fans of other teams that love to hate the Pats, and seek reasons to justify their not liking Brady or the Pats.





    /rant
  13. PatsWickedPissah

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    Of course a Fitzgerald is bright. I wonder if he's from the same part of Ireland as me sainted mom?
  14. AndyJohnson

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    I think its also pretty clear he means 4 choices.
  15. Boston Boxer

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    Ocho and Brady did just not click...i have seen several replays where Ocho is wide open but Brady goes to someone else.
  16. patsfan13

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    Moss did run most of the routes in 2007 not so much in the second half of 2009 and 2010. He did understand the system.

    This article why Ocho may get a shot at returning to the mini camps and TC to see if he can play the system.

    This is also why you are better off if you want a FA WR to look at B Lloyd who knows the system than other big name WR's who don't know the system and would be a crap shoot.
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  17. skinnydog

    skinnydog Rookie

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    That's the list? Color me unimpressed. First, I don't think they were running this offense under Charlie, although it started there. So I'm not sure you can count Brown and Patten. Welker is a pure slot receiver and Woodhead is a running back. But even including everyone you listed its hardly an impressive list of wideouts. Fact is, other than Moss for 1 year Brady has never had a pro bowl caliber wideout to throw to.
  18. NEP4Life

    NEP4Life Rookie

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    Actually, my math was off.

    4 points @ 2 options per point = 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 16 routes! :eek:
  19. Ron Sellers

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    No, actually you were right the first time. 4 x 2 = 8

    1.) Point A, Option A
    2.) Point A, Option B
    3.) Point B, Option A
    4.) Point B, Option B
    5.) Point C, Option A
    6.) Point C, Option B
    7.) Point D, Option A
    8.) Point D, Option B
  20. MoLewisrocks

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    They have always run this offense and it's one reason Brown and Patten excelled in their time here. Both were heady players as opposed to tremendous athletes. Welker is primarily a slot receiver, but no one here is purely anything. They all have to learn each other routes for a couple of reasons...one so they can run them if the personnel grouping and read dictates they do and also so they know what the other parts of the puzzle are supposed to do. The beauty of the system is it can and has been run without a prototypical pro bowl caliber wideout to throw to.

    Fans are a lot like wideouts, some just can't grasp the system.
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