...So what's the deal with 12 men in the huddle?

[Froob]

So what's the deal with 12 men in the huddle? I'm talking about what happened last night against minnesota on 4th and 1 vs green bay. The packers didn't snap the ball but the vikes got called for 12 men. But, other times a team will challenge 12 men on the field and they will look at the replay and see if the 12th men's foot is inbounds when the ball is snapped. So if the refs catch 12 men on the field BEFORE the ball is snapped they can call it? That seems inconsistent and bogus. So if a coach challenges and the refs can see they had 12 men on the field around the time the ball is snapped but the defender gets off the field before the ball is snapped shouldn't it still be 12 men in the huddle? A similar situation I also don't like is when a ref will catch a defender being offsides but blows the play dead instead of letting the play play out. That doesn't make sense to me. It should be the same penalty and the same outcome either way. In both instances, I think they should let the play play out. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the rules here, if so please correct me.

 

[mgcolby]

They can call it if the snap is immenent(sp?) so that the defense can't force the offense to snap the ball and run a play, costing the offense time. I don't know the exact writing of the rule and if it is only in effect at the end of the game. But they made the rule change this year after the 12 men on the field penalty against the Giants at the end of the super bowl.

edit: here is a link that explains it.

http://www.footballzebras.com/2012/09/05/4009/

 

[BradfordPatsFan]

Two separate penalties here. 12 men in the huddle can only be called on the offense. Illegal participation is when there are more than 11 defenders on the field at the snap.

Offense cannot have 12 men in the huddle ever.

Defense can have as many as they want until the ball is snapped. Once the ball is snapped, 12 men on the field, even if the 12th man is running off, is a penalty. This is because the defense has the right to substitute after the offense does.

 

[dizi24]

So what's the deal with 12 men in the huddle? I'm talking about what happened last night against minnesota on 4th and 1 vs green bay. The packers didn't snap the ball but the vikes got called for 12 men. But, other times a team will challenge 12 men on the field and they will look at the replay and see if the 12th men's foot is inbounds when the ball is snapped. So if the refs catch 12 men on the field BEFORE the ball is snapped they can call it? That seems inconsistent and bogus. So if a coach challenges and the refs can see they had 12 men on the field around the time the ball is snapped but the defender gets off the field before the ball is snapped shouldn't it still be 12 men in the huddle? A similar situation I also don't like is when a ref will catch a defender being offsides but blows the play dead instead of letting the play play out. That doesn't make sense to me. It should be the same penalty and the same outcome either way. In both instances, I think they should let the play play out. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the rules here, if so please correct me.

First off, these are too different penalties. One is twelve men in the huddle is a call only made against the offense. The rule you're referencing is 12 men on the field, commonly called on the defense. This is what te Vikings were flagged for, 12 men on the field.

The rule was changed after the Superbowl, when it became clear that a team could gain an advantage of intentionally putting 12 men on the field late in a game. So the new rule is if a snap is imminent, and the defense had 12 or more men on the field, the play is dead. That's simply a dead ball foul. Offense gets 5 yards and the play then can't be run. This still leaves the option of the play being challenged if the refs missed it and challenging it would still benefit the offense.

As for the offsides, offsides is not generally a dead ball foul. Usually the offense gets the free play. The only two exceptions I know of are: encroachment (where an offensive player is actually touched) and unabated to the QB, where the safety of the QB is at risk

 

[Froob]

oh okay cool didnt know it was because the superbowl. that clears things up thank you!

 

[Sciz]

One perfect example of what this prevents from working:
Buddy Ryan’s “Polish Goalline” tactic | Smart Football

 

[Froob]

They can call it if the snap is immenent(sp?) so that the defense can't force the offense to snap the ball and run a play, costing the offense time. I don't know the exact writing of the rule and if it is only in effect at the end of the game. But they made the rule change this year after the 12 men on the field penalty against the Giants at the end of the super bowl.

edit: here is a link that explains it.

12 men in formation now stops play | Football Zebras.com

so didnt the refs make a mistake then because the vikings player was attempting to get off the field?

 

[mgcolby]

so didnt the refs make a mistake then because the vikings player was attempting to get off the field?

That is where the judgement aspect comes into play. If the snap is imminent and the 12th defender is still on the field, then the Ref will blow the whistle and call the dead ball foul.