So what is the WR depth chart now?

[lamafist]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

This is really just crazy talk.

Maroney isn't a receiver. If he has any experience as a WR, it was in high school. In college, he wasn't even much of a receiving back, as that wasn't really part of their offense. On the Pats, he's caught some screens and dumpoffs, and maybe a ball or two in the flats, but he's *not* a route-running back like Faulk.

See, before it even comes to a question of whether he's got "good hands" or not, he needs to be able to get open. That means he needs to learn the passing tree, he needs to learn how to run crisp routes, he needs to learn how to make sight reads from the coverage he sees, he needs to learn how to get a clean release at the line of scrimmage, he needs to learn to wait 'til the last second to snatch a ball, so as not to telegraph to the DB when to knock it away, and he needs to learn how to shield the ball with his body when going up into the air.

And there's more. And after he learns all that stuff, he needs to practice it until he can do it at game speed, because, sure, maybe he has a better capacity for "good hands" than Aiken, but considering he hasn't been developing them his whole time in the NFL and college, they're not going to be very good right now.

And as for our CB's -- that might be more of a natural transition, but it's still going to take a lot of practice time to get them remotely comfortable in the offense, and, let's be honest here, I think our secondary is going to need all their practice time to work at, you know, defending passes.

Now, you mention Stanback as an example of how you wouldn't be surprised by any player switching positions at this point. Well, look how long it's taken Stanback to make the transition from college QB to NFL WR. This is his third year in the league, and he's still not all the way there.

So while I agree that getting guys like Maroney, Faulk and Taylor more involved in the passing game is a good idea, if it happens, it's going to be, for the most part, coming out of the backfield -- except for Faulk, who, has a limited number of WR-type routes under his belt. But even then, he works best when he starts behind Brady and motions out wide, as it makes it more likely that he has a LB covering him.

 

[tombonneau]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

What is with this misconception that Aiken isn't a deep threat?

18-317 17.6ypc

He's caught two huge bombs from Brady, one probably the play of the year vs. Miami, and Brady just missed him on another wide open deep route in that same game.

 

[DaedalusX]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

Do you really think Bodden or Butler would be more of a deep threat than Aiken?

He isn't a deep threat, so they're not really up against much competition.

Intercepting a pass knowing you have help over the top is completely different than running a route, making the same read as your QB, and then making the catch.

They have to know Brady's tendencies almost as well as his WRs. It's not unreasonable to think they can make the same reads as him to catch the ball considering that's what they're doing anyway to cover the man.

If you just want to see what happens, that's what minicamp and preseason are for - not the playoffs.

If it gives them the best chance to win, it doesn't matter when it happens.

Assuming that is true, why not go to the various Plan B's on offense (i.e., more of Faulk, Taylor, Morris, Maroney, Watson, Baker, etc.) instead of Plan Z (i.e., two guys that not only have zero experience at that position, but zero experience on offense.)

Because Plan B hasn't really worked when it was attempted, either.

In other words what: more Wilhite? More Wheatley? Springs and three safetys?

If need be, but we don't run 5-wide every down or even every drive. And I'd rather have Bodden/Butler get extra reps even as decoys on O than give them extra reps by having the O constantly go 3 and out.

The #3 WR debate is really no different than it was 24 hours ago. That receiver on the opposite side of Moss is still Aiken or whomever, and it doesn't change whether the slot receiver is Welker or Edelman.

It neuters our 4 and 5 wide sets, and makes our 3 wide set dangerously close to ineffective. We saw that in the 3rd and 4th quarter today.

The slot receiver being injured is not a good reason to go into a playoff game and panic by disrupting the entire defenseive secondary as well as the #2 WR position. Better off making only one change than three.

Wes wasn't just our slot receiver. This was a huge loss. Big losses require equally big fixes.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

Well, let's ignore them for a minute and start with Maroney.

I want to see him get a shot and I think he could be lethal if used properly. Maybe I'm wrong and maybe he sucks at receiving, but he's done alright a few times with it. He just hasn't really been asked to do it.

Bodden/Butler I'm looking to because they're athletic, can catch and know how to read Tom Brady's mannerisms. That's already way more than you'll get off the street.

Well, I think we would, just not with the same sense of urgency. Before today is was an next season problem. Now it's a next week problem.


Not necessarily true. They have to defend it, they know Brady's tendencies, which is already better than a FA off the street. If you know how to defend it, you know at least a little of how to use it.

And when you say FA I'm assuming you're not talking about Brandon Marshall or Ocho Cinco level candidates, but other Aikens.

Really, the real goal is to be less predictable and give the D more to think about.

I'd like to see Maroney get some more screen passes. Same with Faulk. But to think that Maroney is going to be able to line up at WR with a week's worth of practice is a little crazy, don't you think?

I know what you're looking for with the Bodden/Butler thing, but there is no way they are better at WR with a week's worth of prep than an Aiken or Stanback.

Another option for mixing it up on offense might be finally using a version of the wildcat with Edelman at QB. Maybe the Pats have practiced this at a few points this year and have been saving it, maybe not. Call it something like Edelmania and have him take some snaps like the Jets do with Smith and the Browns do with Cribbs.

Then again, with a QB like Brady, why would you want to take out one of the best QB's in the game.

 

[DaedalusX]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

I'd like to see Maroney get some more screen passes. Same with Faulk. But to think that Maroney is going to be able to line up at WR with a week's worth of practice is a little crazy, don't you think?

Maybe. Probably. I'm looking for solutions to a very big problem, and it wouldn't hurt to try. Who knows, maybe he takes to it quickly.

I know what you're looking for with the Bodden/Butler thing, but there is no way they are better at WR with a week's worth of prep than an Aiken or Stanback.

I don't think we have evidence for or against that. We've never seen them line up at WR.

To that end, I want to make it clear: I'm not saying "dudes, this is the solution, here is our new WR corps". I'm saying, here's a way I think we might be able to plug the leaks, we should give it a shot in practice. I mean, who the hell thought Wilfork would do anything other than nose tackle (see first Miami game), for instance.

Another option for mixing it up on offense might be finally using a version of the wildcat with Edelman at QB. Maybe the Pats have practiced this at a few points this year and have been saving it, maybe not. Call it something like Edelmania and have him take some snaps like the Jets do with Smith and the Browns do with Cribbs.

You know, now that you mention this, with Hoyer and Edelman that wouldn't be quite such an insane notion.

Then again, with a QB like Brady, why would you want to take out one of the best QB's in the game.

Partially because he's about half a sack away from ruptured internal organs at this rate. But that's something else entirely.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

Maybe. Probably. I'm looking for solutions to a very big problem, and it wouldn't hurt to try. Who knows, maybe he takes to it quickly.


I don't think we have evidence for or against that. We've never seen them line up at WR.

To that end, I want to make it clear: I'm not saying "dudes, this is the solution, here is our new WR corps". I'm saying, here's a way I think we might be able to plug the leaks, we should give it a shot in practice. I mean, who the hell thought Wilfork would do anything other than nose tackle (see first Miami game), for instance.


You know, now that you mention this, with Hoyer and Edelman that wouldn't be quite such an insane notion.


Partially because he's about half a sack away from ruptured internal organs at this rate. But that's something else entirely.

i wouldn't mind seeing the pats mix in some interesting twists with Edelman taking snaps as i suggested, but i doubt they'll do it.

as for the wilfork comparison, what you're suggesting to do with butler/bodden is comparable to saying "neal is out so let's try him at offensive guard. wilfork goes up against the OL in practice, so he knows the tendencies of the OL and there is no proof he can't do a better job than connolly or whoever."

it's a little crazy to think that a guy can just flip over to the other side of the ball after having no experience there and be effective. i mean hell, it's hard for some former college QB's to turn into effective WR (see Matt Jones, Brad Smith, Antawan Randel El) over the course of a few years, so what are the chances two CB's turn into better options than Aiken over the course of a week.

 

[jmt57]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

If all it took was five days for guys to jump in and be an effective part of the Pats' passing game, then why aren't Joey Galloway, Greg Lewis or Alex Smith still here? Reading a QB and defending the pass is just not the same as reading defenders and running pass routes.

Sorry, but in my opinion the concept of adding Bodden and/or Butler to the receiving corps right now makes no sense at all. I just can't see one of them being a sudden improvement over Aiken. Run the ball a bit more, use the tight ends a bit more, and rely on the 4 and 5 wide shotgun formations a bit less. Actually they should be planning to do that against Baltimore anyways, even if Welker was playing. Plan on a few more runs and screen passes to counteract their pass rush.

 

[DaedalusX]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

it's a little crazy to think that a guy can just flip over to the other side of the ball after having no experience there and be effective. i mean hell, it's hard for some former college QB's to turn into effective WR (see Matt Jones, Brad Smith, Antawan Randel El) over the course of a few years, so what are the chances two CB's turn into better options than Aiken over the course of a week.

Like I said, it's a crazy idea.

 

[DaedalusX]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

If all it took was five days for guys to jump in and be an effective part of the Pats' passing game, then why aren't Joey Galloway, Greg Lewis or Alex Smith still here? Reading a QB and defending the pass is just not the same as reading defenders and running pass routes.

Well, for Galloway it was as much his inability to catch the ball as anything else. I don't think we had a definitive word on why Lewis was cut. Smith was a TE.

Sorry, but in my opinion the concept of adding Bodden and/or Butler to the receiving corps right now makes no sense at all. I just can't see one of them being a sudden improvement over Aiken.

If that's the case, then Aiken has to start getting good really fast.

Run the ball a bit more, use the tight ends a bit more, and rely on the 4 and 5 wide shotgun formations a bit less. Actually they should be planning to do that against Baltimore anyways, even if Welker was playing. Plan on a few more runs and screen passes to counteract their pass rush.

This game plan works for 1 quarter, stutters in the second and then collapses in the second half. It's not the answer, IMO.

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

Like I said, it's a crazy idea.

Indeed it is and as jmt57 said, Galloway, Smith, or Lewis would still be here if it took all of 5 days to get acclimated in the offense. If those proven WR and TE struggle to fit in and are cut/traded, why would our CB's who have no experience at WR slot in seamlessly?

I know you're looking for a solution to the problem, but I don't think we see one until the offseason. It doesn't make sense to mess with what we have now. Might as well use this week to get in extra work for Edelman, Aiken, Stanback, and maybe even Slater rather than waste time trying something that has a 99.9% chance of failing.

Good convo back and forth. I can't sleep, I'm too pumped for next weekend and living in NY I'm pissed that the Jets made it b/c now I gotta deal with all their arrogant fans tomorrow

 

[Brady2Welker]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

More importantly than a CB like Bodden being converted to a WR, who would play corner? Wilhite is a revolving door who just lets recievers in. And our 2nd round pick from a year or so ago, Terrence Wheatley has started 2 games if hes not even on IR, idk. And we cant ask Bodden to play both sides of the ball, his performance would slack by the 2nd quarter, no one has that endurance.

 

[DarrylS]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

With three days of practice, a career of playing D and after probably 150 practices for the year, not sure how realistic it is for someone to switch sides.. it seems that role, learning curve and aptitude of a d back is somewhat minimized... the issue with Galloway, Aiken and Stanbach is that their timing is off... most of this O is about timing patterns, Brady puts the ball where they should be.. and this cannot be learned in one week.

With that being said, the answer is and has been obvious...ultilizing the TE's, involving Faulk and creative game planning...

Troy Brown was the extraordinary exception.. and very far from the rule.

 

[RayClay]

Given how they'd been getting completely shut out for weeks prior to this game, I doubt it.

Yeah, Brady's been untouched the last few years.

 

[RayClay]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

I forgot about Butler. They should be working him out now.

For whoever asked, yes i think Butler would be a better deep threat than Aiken. I would be a similar deep threat to Aiken, meaning not at all.

 

[RoughingthePasser]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

How about Edelman simply replaces Welker, along with a slightly higher reliance on Faulk, other RB's, and the TE's.


No need for Bodden or Butler to enter the equation.

I think your idea is the way it's going to go.
FAULK will play a HUGE roll.

Our opponents will be prepared for this. Its good we have our running crew in good shape with guys like Faulk and Maroney that can make big plays in receiving.

Watson and Baker will have to make some catches too.

We just need to adjust and hopefully Wes can help Edelman-not that Edelman needs it-he had a decent game.

The Ravens will be ready for us.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

I think your idea is the way it's going to go.
FAULK will play a HUGE roll.

Our opponents will be prepared for this. Its good we have our running crew in good shape with guys like Faulk and Maroney that can make big plays in receiving.

Watson and Baker will have to make some catches too.

We just need to adjust and hopefully Wes can help Edelman-not that Edelman needs it-he had a decent game.

The Ravens will be ready for us.

Did anyone notice Edelmann caught 10 passes yesterday?

This board cracks me up. This whole year was spent whining that the offense sucks because brady targets Welker/Moss too much. Now they will be forced to "spread the ball around" and we now need Bodden as a receiver?

My guess there campers. You are finally going to get the balanced offense you have been dreaming about since Moss/Welker showed up.

Besides, it's not like the AFC contestants are "shut down" passing defenses.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

I can maybe see spreading Maroney wide but you lost me at putting Bodden/Butler at WR.

The solution IMO is we don't even try running the 5 wide. All it did, even when we had Welker, was expose Brady to more punishment. And if we tried running it with the personnel we have now it'd just be pointless. Get your best guys out there as much as you can. I'd rather see Watson and Baker out there than Aiken and Stanback. Faulk will have to get more carries IMO to keep defenses honest when he is the single back. And Maroney/Taylor/Morris will need to get involved in the passing game some as well to keep those formations honest. Alot is going to be put on the playcalling and I'm not sure that's good.

 

[BradyManny]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

If this team wants to run a spread offense, ever, this post season, Aiken, Stanback and Slater are not the 3, 4 and 5 that are going to get it done.

I'd like to see guys with better hands and adaptability try it out.

The depth at wide receiver went from poor to atrocious yesterday. Aiken looked like he might've injured himself at the end of the game. If that's the case, then we'll be forced to sign someone off the streets as some kind of emergency, probably one of the wideouts we've had in for workouts. Unfortunately, I do not think we have a WR on the PS right now - really a bummer about Nunn not being there.

Otherwise, we simply cannot run the spread. And that might be OK. Even before Welker went down, I don't think the spread was too viable for this team. Next season, we need to have a much better #3 option at WR. I think 2WR, 2TE is our best bet from here on out. It's all about creating mismatches.

A 2WR, 2 TE set forces the opponent into a base defense and we can spread out any of Baker, Watson and an RB and create those mismatches. Not too shabby.

Heck, I'd contemplate using a jumbo (1 WR) package to even force the D into taking a DB off the field, and then either splitting out the aforementioned weapons or just running over them.

 

[ScottWedmanIsMyHero]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

This makes some sense. Many have been calling for the Pats to have more variety and creativity at offense all year. This certainly should force it. So what *should* the Pats offense look like next week? More screen passes to RBs and short reads to the TE?

The depth at wide receiver went from poor to atrocious yesterday. Aiken looked like he might've injured himself at the end of the game. If that's the case, then we'll be forced to sign someone off the streets as some kind of emergency, probably one of the wideouts we've had in for workouts. Unfortunately, I do not think we have a WR on the PS right now - really a bummer about Nunn not being there.

Otherwise, we simply cannot run the spread. And that might be OK. Even before Welker went down, I don't think the spread was too viable for this team. Next season, we need to have a much better #3 option at WR. I think 2WR, 2TE is our best bet from here on out. It's all about creating mismatches.

A 2WR, 2 TE set forces the opponent into a base defense and we can spread out any of Baker, Watson and an RB and create those mismatches. Not too shabby.

Heck, I'd contemplate using a jumbo (1 WR) package to even force the D into taking a DB off the field, and then either splitting out the aforementioned weapons or just running over them.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Re: Temporary WR Solution

Our WR situations now sucks. What I would like to see tried out as a patchwork solution, just to see if it works in the slightest (maybe just in practice) and possibly better than currently:

1: Moss
2: Edelman
3: Maroney (Like a Hines Ward / Stallworth hybrid)
4: Aiken/Bodden/Butler (Bodden/Butler alternating in depending on time of possession)
5: Stanback/Slater/Bodden/Butler (Bodden/Butler alternating in depending on time of possession)

Maroney is an open field threat and would be the easiest transition, plus we have Morris, Taylor and Faulk to fill his role.

Aiken and Stanback aren't dependable, but both Bodden and Butler have good hands and are fast. I think if used sparingly, this could make up an interesting temporary cast for a 5 wide spread offense.

The real point is, I have no confidence in our WR corps and hope Belichick is thinking creatively because a college team could shutdown the Pats O if Moss/Edelman are the only legit targets and we operate out of a 3, 4 or 5 wide set.

TE usage is... well, I want to believe in Watson and Baker, but with the way our O-line plays and with the drops Watson has, it's hard to see a 2 WR 2 TE set really being what's needed to keep us through the playoffs.

Anyway, it's late and I thought I'd throw this crazy idea out there.

it's thin, i agree, but I don't think any WR group that includes Randy Moss "sucks"...

...i think it's not so much a matter of different players but of going back to 2003/04 and Brady's looking for the open guy. if they're focusing on containing Moss, somebody, maybe Edelman over the middle, maybe a TE, maybe a back in the flat, is going to be open.