So what is a 2-gap 4-3 anyway?

[Ring 6]

I believe BB was my source, but my memory has played tricks on me before.

I do not know of any 2gap defenses other than those run by BB, Parcells, and their disciples. Even the 34 teams (Pitt, GB, etc) are 1 gap.
But to be clear, there are tons of different defensive calls. Its not just one gap or 2 gap. 2 gap is unique, because most other techniques more resemble one gap, such as stunt, twist, roll, etc.
The real distinction, IMO, is that the 2gap team wants players to control the line of scrimage in their area of the field, and a one gap team wants their player to GET TO a part of the field then chase the ball if it isnt there.
You could almost describe it as
2gap DL read and react off of their blocker
1gap DL "blitz" a gap

 

[Ring 6]

Understood.. my mistake. I did not realize setting the edge is only a contain

Also on Pryor/Brace.. I believe I saw them set in DE in one or two formations in the ps, if I am not wrong. Perhaps BB was just moving them around to test them out?

BB traditionally puts young DLs at all DL positions. Ive heard him explain that the technique is exactly the same, thats also what he has said about using a lot of 43 early in ps most years. I assume if I have a young DL and I want him to play 2gap, I'd like to match him up against a T to judge him best, assuming the T is the most physical blocker.
Pryor would seem to definitely be a 34 DE and a 43 DT,
Brace would seem to be a 34 NT and 43 DT.

Here is a shocker though, to file away for future reference.
Early in Wilforks career there was talk about him being 34 DE, that he was very capable of it, and could be dominant, but we had Seymour and Warren.
Given the fact that technique is identical, and given the fact that long range our 3rd best DL may figure to be Brace, it would be a suprise but not a total shock to see our 34 defense have Brace on the nose and Wilfork at DE now that Seymour is traded.
Don't forget that I do not remember the season where the opening day lineup was the same as we expected at the end of preseason, so on the longshot I could actually be right, remember where you heard this.

 

[Fencer]

When I playaction you, my OL act as if its a run. Your DL engage as if its a run, because their primary job is to control the poa.
As opposed to a one gap that tells my DL to AVOID the block, I have created a tremendous disadvantage for my DL.
The counter to that disadvantage is to be in a 34 where no one knows where the 4th rusher is coming from (also makes it harder to match up your blockers) and that 4th rusher is in a LB position, so he has read pass before engaging.

So what you're saying seems to be that the schemes good against play-action are the ones that would be tackling runners for losses somewhat frequently (so if a fake run turns out to be a pass, the scheme has been trying to get defenders into the backfield, which is where they're needed when they realize it's pass).

Makes sense ...

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I do not know of any 2gap defenses other than those run by BB, Parcells, and their disciples. Even the 34 teams (Pitt, GB, etc) are 1 gap.
But to be clear, there are tons of different defensive calls. Its not just one gap or 2 gap. 2 gap is unique, because most other techniques more resemble one gap, such as stunt, twist, roll, etc.
The real distinction, IMO, is that the 2gap team wants players to control the line of scrimage in their area of the field, and a one gap team wants their player to GET TO a part of the field then chase the ball if it isnt there.
You could almost describe it as
2gap DL read and react off of their blocker
1gap DL "blitz" a gap

I'd have to sit down and dissect Philly's D to get some idea of how they do business, but they do like bigger LBs - the same kind if not the very same ones NE likes. Watching the NE 4-3 in pre-season I saw a mix of two-gap and one-gap play, most noticably against Philly they were trying to one-gap and gave up a lot of ground on running plays - when they lined up and two-gapped they killed the run game.

 

[Patspsycho]

So what you're saying seems to be that the schemes good against play-action are the ones that would be tackling runners for losses somewhat frequently (so if a fake run turns out to be a pass, the scheme has been trying to get defenders into the backfield, which is where they're needed when they realize it's pass).

Makes sense ...

Yes it does.. you give up the small play to prevent the big play.. so in that regard, I guess BB does not see 2 gap 4-3 as a true liability against the play action?

 

[Ring 6]

So what you're saying seems to be that the schemes good against play-action are the ones that would be tackling runners for losses somewhat frequently (so if a fake run turns out to be a pass, the scheme has been trying to get defenders into the backfield, which is where they're needed when they realize it's pass).

Makes sense ...

I would agree with that statement, but what I was saying was the other side. That a pass rusher who starts out by engaging the OL, thinking it s a run, then has to get off the block to start rushing is at a huge disadvantage.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

I do not know of any 2gap defenses other than those run by BB, Parcells, and their disciples. Even the 34 teams (Pitt, GB, etc) are 1 gap.
But to be clear, there are tons of different defensive calls. Its not just one gap or 2 gap. 2 gap is unique, because most other techniques more resemble one gap, such as stunt, twist, roll, etc.
The real distinction, IMO, is that the 2gap team wants players to control the line of scrimage in their area of the field, and a one gap team wants their player to GET TO a part of the field then chase the ball if it isnt there.
You could almost describe it as
2gap DL read and react off of their blocker
1gap DL "blitz" a gap

Actually, Box of Rocks is right. As usual.

Eagles Continuing Two Gap Technique - GCOBB.COM

Never question the Box. LOL

 

[Ring 6]

Actually, Box of Rocks is right. As usual.

Eagles Continuing Two Gap Technique - GCOBB.COM

Never question the Box. LOL

Did you read the article you cited? It says they play one gap primarily but SOMETIMES they play 2 gap.
I was speaking of teams that use 2 gap as their base D, not just once in a while.

 

[Ring 6]

Yes it does.. you give up the small play to prevent the big play.. so in that regard, I guess BB does not see 2 gap 4-3 as a true liability against the play action?

No. 2 gap is a liability against play action but one he is willing to accept because you cant run a defense that is strong against everything. He typically adjusts for that liability by aligning in a 34 to bolster the pass rush in those situations.

 

[PATRIOTS-80]

Did you read the article you cited? It says they play one gap primarily but SOMETIMES they play 2 gap.
I was speaking of teams that use 2 gap as their base D, not just once in a while.

ahh, shucks of course I read it. After reading it, I knew Philly plays 1 gap as well as 2 gap, primarily against the run. Go ask Box if he thought Philly was a 4-3, 2 gap base. Can't speak for him.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

ahh, shucks of course I read it. After reading it, I knew Philly plays 1 gap as well as 2 gap, primarily against the run. Go ask Box if he thought Philly was a 4-3, 2 gap base. Can't speak for him.

My Philly remark was based on something I think I remember BB saying, that said, I've been trying to find anything online that breaks down what Philly does. There's lots of zone blitz discussion, but that's a pass defense. This article discusses Philly trying to find bigger LBs to hold up against the run - which combined with Trotter talking about playing downhill and taking on OL "sounds" a bit like two-gap thinking. I'll keep looking.
An End To The Revolving Door? - Philadelphia Eagles

Here's a fantasy article discussing Philly (and NYG's) run defense using the Jim Johnson method. "If" Philly was trying to two-gap using defensive ends who would be OLBs for NE, then it makes sense their run defense would be weaker.
KFFL - Article - Steve Spagnuolo, DC, New York Giants

Looking over the two articles above, which are the only two I've found so far addressing the run game and not drooling over the blitz packages, then I may indeed be remembering BB's remarks with some degree of accuracy. Note in pre-season BB's 4-3 has used 3-4 DEs as 4-3 DEs, whether first string or second/third. The smaller DE/OLBs come in as a Nickel package. BB appeared to go with smaller Linebackers in the draft (Mayo was 242, Crable 243), but Mayo reported he was at 250+ in a Training Camp interview, and Guyton looks even bigger when the two are standing next to each other - so it doesn't look like any real effort to get smaller at LB, just more athletic.

This article talks about using run blitzes from the secondary to stop the run, which again could be a counter to using smaller DEs to try and two-gap, but it also talks about interior penetration which would be one-gap. :confused2:
Philly's Defensive Fanatic - washingtonpost.com

A blog entry talking about the DTs "clogging" up the middle.
Laforda - The News Lounge -

Here's a Football Outsiders piece that again is mostly a blitz discussion, but the Atlanta game sounds like suspiciously like a two-gap read and react.
FOOTBALL OUTSIDERS: Football analysis and NFL stats for the Moneyball era - Authors of Football Outsiders Almanac 2009

I expect Jim Johnson had his Eagles player both styles much as BB has used one-gap at times and seems to be working more one-gap into his 4-3 run packages this pre-season.