So it appears that the Pats got a low 1st high 2nd pick in Cannon.

[townes]

Actually, I think you do, because it uses analysis from outside the NFL teams as the starting point. None of those analysis are relevant, or significant. They are the carnival barkers of the whole process. The only boards that define reach and steal are those of the team's doing the picking. Everyone else is just an amateur or professional media person. The only football professionals are employed by the teams.

This is exactly how i see it, we can talk reach and steal all we want but only the teams lnow how they have them rated. this applies to all teams, not just our favorites, and the only way to really evaluate drafting is by results.

 

[Off The Grid]

You're about 9 days behind the curve on that breaking news.

But, yeah: Marcus "Howitzer" Cannon is clearly a Top 60 Talent.

The article was published this morning, which is what I'm highlighting for the Board.

OK.

You AND the writer are 9 days behind the curve ~ a full year, really ~ on that breaking news!!

Marcus "Howitzer" Cannon has been generally considered a Top 60 Talent for a LONG time.

 

[TheSolderKing]

we both had similar ****.


I underwent chemo and it killed my physique. Skit happens. I took time off this yr for family issues.



let me tell u.... Muscle MEMORY is 100% real. Don't worry if he will return poorly b/c in time he will get lots back. they get paid to workout. i didn't.


sucks i can't 135lb 15rep easy Military Pr4ess for a warm up. **** happens. last yr when I did return I was mighty impressed how quickly strength and power came back/



THIS IS ALSO Y HERZLICH IS A HUGE BINKY OF MINE THAT WILL DOMINATE IN 3YRS:rocker:

 

[The Scrizz]

Wasn't Logan Mankins a "reach?"

Until we found out a few days later that San Fran was taking him with the very next pick. I have come to accept the things that I don't know and any NFL team's draft board would have to be at the top of the list.

 

[patfanken]

We seem to go through this every year. What's on the Patriots board is not what defines a reach/steal. What defines a reach/steal is a comparison of where the general consensus has a player going with where that player actually goes.

Cannon's a steal if he recovers and can play, because he was originally viewed as a high round pick who ended up getting taken low due to his problems. The RBs are reaches because they were viewed as being lower picks. Whether any of them are quality players is a different question.

It's fine to trot out the "BB's draft board is different!" argument as a way of saying that you don't care if a player is a reach. However, that doesn't change the player to being a non-reach and, if it did, it would negate the "steal/great value" argument in the other direction since, if BB's draft board is different, claims that a player was supposed to go higher simply don't apply because the same "Patriots have a different board" aspect would be in play.

When it come right down to it, isn't what is "value" and what's a "reach" simply a matter of opinion. Haven't we seen players rise and fall from their expected positions enough times over the years to realize its all just subjective....and quite meaningless (except to us who have nothing better to do. ) Because when training camps finally open, where you were drafted won't mean a thing to the coaches who will evaluate who is going to make the team. All that will matter is can you play.

Of course we as fans and the mediots will talk about it forever....just because we can.

 

[The Scrizz]

We seem to go through this every year. What's on the Patriots board is not what defines a reach/steal. What defines a reach/steal is a comparison of where the general consensus has a player going with where that player actually goes.

Cannon's a steal if he recovers and can play, because he was originally viewed as a high round pick who ended up getting taken low due to his problems. The RBs are reaches because they were viewed as being lower picks. Whether any of them are quality players is a different question.

It's fine to trot out the "BB's draft board is different!" argument as a way of saying that you don't care if a player is a reach. However, that doesn't change the player to being a non-reach and, if it did, it would negate the "steal/great value" argument in the other direction since, if BB's draft board is different, claims that a player was supposed to go higher simply don't apply because the same "Patriots have a different board" aspect would be in play.

Of course you don't know any team's board let alone every team's board, so you essentially know nothing. Everything you spew about reaches is crap because you don't know if they are reaches and have admitted as much.

 

[townes]

Actually, I didn't say anything like what your putting forward. You're now arguing strawmen. However, the ridiculousness of your position is demonstrated time and again by the Raiders and that team's love of speed.

Also, to take an extreme example:

Player "A" is removed from 28 draft boards because of character problems. Of the 4 remaining teams, 3 of them assign him only a 7th round grade. All scouts, off-the-record GMs and coaches, and draft analysts have the player at no higher than a 6th round grade. The final team assigns him a 2nd round grade and drafts him in the 3rd.

To the team, he was good value. To everyone else, he was a major reach. Since we don't have complete absolute knowledge of all 32 draft boards, we have to go with the best we have, and that's the general consensus.

You know this, and you apply it when it's not your favorite team. Don't be a sucker just because it's your favorite team's draft that you're evaluating.

I'm not arguing any strawman, you are clearly suggesting they are taking the wrong player at that time by calling it a 'reach' when you have no idea how the team has them rated, and you are prioritizing the ratings of the Kipers and Wrights over the grades the patriots give them. I wouldn't call the Raiders picks reaches either i just think they grade very differently than the rest of the NFL and prioritize speed over production in their scouting.

Basically i think the use of "reach" gives people the opportunity to criticize drafts by using generic ratings and need based mocks in the absence of real knowledge of team boards, and as i said before the only way to really rate a draft is wait 3-4 years and rate the production and performance of the players drafted, and while the Patriots do a really good job overall of loading up with players they want who perform well they also have plenty of misses in their drafts, and i don't ignore that.

 

[The Scrizz]

To the team, he was good value. To everyone else, he was a major reach. Since we don't have complete absolute knowledge of all 32 draft boards, we have to go with the best we have, and that's the general consensus.

You know this, and you apply it when it's not your favorite team. Don't be a sucker just because it's your favorite team's draft that you're evaluating.

Are you serious? Unless you know exactly what all 32 draft boards had a player rated at it is IMPOSSIBLE to know whether somebody "reached" for a player. Literally impossible.

If one other team was planning to pick your guy then the 'general consensus', whatever the hell that is, is meaningless.

 

[Off The Grid]

How do you know that Ridley would have been available at 92 or 125? Sure Kiper says so but if one other NFL team loves him than he's not available at those spots.

Nobody's perfect.

Mel "Stopped Clock" Kiper can't HELP but get it right ONCE in a while.

Drafting Steven "Fire When Ready" Ridley at #73 wasn't Coach Bill The Mad's best moment.

Even so, he didn't grievously over reach for him.

And while I would've preferred any of 3 to 5 Mashers over him, his Game is cleaner than most...and that counts HEAVILY with Coach Bill The Mad...and with ME, for that matter.

It also puts us in a position to trade his more expensive Clone for a 2nd Rounder or so via RFA.

***

As for Shane "The Machine" Vereen, he was actually IN my Mock Draft, at #60, and for my money he is the best all around Back in the entire DRAFT...so taking him at #56 sounds pretty damned good to ME.

 

[townes]

Until we found out a few days later that San Fran was taking him with the very next pick. I have come to accept the things that I don't know and any NFL team's draft board would have to be at the top of the list.

Which is pretty much what we are hearing with the Solder pick as well, as reports have it the Giants and Colts wanted him. Much as i love following the draft I realized long ago that not knowing the actual board the patriots use will always leave me scratching my head at how far off base i usually am on their picks.

 

[The Scrizz]

When it come right down to it, isn't what is "value" and what's a "reach" simply a matter of opinion. Haven't we seen players rise and fall from their expected positions enough times over the years to realize its all just subjective....and quite meaningless (except to us who have nothing better to do. ) Because when training camps finally open, where you were drafted won't mean a thing to the coaches who will evaluate who is going to make the team. All that will matter is can you play.

Of course we as fans and the mediots will talk about it forever....just because we can.

It actually isn't a matter of opinion. You could figure out exactly which players were reaches and how much of a reach. All you would need is access to all 32 teams' draft boards and war rooms as the draft was occurring.

This argument comes down to the people who know what they don't know and the people who don't care what they don't know.

 

[Deus Irae]

When it come right down to it, isn't what is "value" and what's a "reach" simply a matter of opinion. Haven't we seen players rise and fall from their expected positions enough times over the years to realize its all just subjective....and quite meaningless (except to us who have nothing better to do. )

Absolutely. The grading of a draft is nothing but an exercise in killing time, and it's based upon nothing but opinion. It's something to do in the offseason, and not much more than that. We can extend that to things like the weekly power rankings during the season, too, at least for most of the season.

Because when training camps finally open, where you were drafted won't mean a thing to the coaches who will evaluate who is going to make the team. All that will matter is can you play.

I agree with you here in general, although not completely. A first round pick is going to get more of a chance to prove himself than a 7th round pick. However, in the end, if you suck, you suck, which is where you're coming from. All the money and embarrassment involved in cutting a #1 overall pick didn't save JaMarcus Russell in the end.

Of course we as fans and the mediots will talk about it forever....just because we can.

Nailed it

 

[cupofjoe1962]

Yeah and it appears BB spent 2 third round picks on running backs he could have gotten much later in the draft. Ya just never know...

I remember hearing Kiper saying that Vollmer was a reach in the 2nd round.
He said he had the kid rated as a mid 4th round player with upside.

I remember thinking.... why did we draft him in the 2nd round.

A year later I see a Don Banks of SI, redraft that has Vollmer going
#8 overall in the 2009 draft.

Michael Oher to Lions, Percy Harvin to Chiefs - Don Banks - SI.com

 

[AzPatsFan]

Yeah and it appears BB spent 2 third round picks on running backs he could have gotten much later in the draft. Ya just never know...

Sez who? The Pats had the choice of Mikel or Shane and chose Shane Verene. Some old draftniks reports that didn't see a great season like Ridley had. After all all he did was beat out Mark Ingram as the All-SEC RB, this past season...

 

[Oswlek]

I remember hearing Kiper saying that Vollmer was a reach in the 2nd round.
He said he had the kid rated as a mid 4th round player with upside.

I remember thinking.... why did we draft him in the 2nd round.

A year later I see a Don Banks of SI, redraft that has Vollmer going
#8 overall in the 2009 draft.

Michael Oher to Lions, Percy Harvin to Chiefs - Don Banks - SI.com

And a year later, he'd probably go even higher. Certainly over Loadholt.

 

[jsull87]

I am hoping for our OL in 2012 to end up something like this.

LT Solder (Hopefully after a good rookie season mentored by Light or straight in the lineup)
LG Mankins (Pro Bowler)
C Koppen/ 1st/2nd round replacement (In saying that i think he's fine)
RG Cannon (A late 1st early 2nd talent)
RT Vollmer (Pro Bowler)

I think that is a very solid line with great infusion of youth, players in their prime and veteran presence. Sprinkle Gronk's blocking in there and i think we will have a great foundation to build our team on.

 

[patrickscribe]

Awesome post. Please keep discussing medical realities so this can be a learning experience for everyone. You added to my understanding of the differences in treatments, even for me, a Folfox vet.

 

[patrickscribe]

That was meant for Palm Beach Pats Fan's post earlier.

 

[DaBruinz]

First Cannon needs to complete his chemo series. Then assuming he's cancer free, not a given, he can rebuild his strength. I see him starting on PUP at the very best and most likely IR for 2011. He seems like a great guy, and I wish him the very best.

You do realize that he's been keeping his strength up and hasn't been affected by Chemo, though he's had a couple of treatments already.. No nausea. Not bone aches.. no side affects.

Could he still be affected later? Sure.. But the longer he goes without being affected, the less likely it is..

 

[DaBruinz]

People can't talk about Belichick getting great value and also ignore it when Belichick doesn't get that value. It's trying to play both sides of the argument. If something's a reach, just admit it's a reach. It's not as if that's the end of the world. It's one data point among many.

Who said it was a reach? Kiper? He's a talking head who doesn't have half the knowledge or a quarter of the charisma that Joel Buschbaum had.

It's real simple. BB sets his draft boards up based on the grades they give them. Those grades have almost nothing in common with the grades given out by Kiper or Mayock or McShay.

The only way you can claim it was a "reach" is if you knew what BBs board looked like and they had Ridley as a 4th/5th rounder and took him in the 3rd.
Otherwise, there is no real way of knowing.

OH, and one last thing. Ridley was listed as a high 3rd prospect at one point.. So I find it hard to think that the Pats taking him mid-3rd is all that bad.