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"Small government"

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by chicowalker, Nov 5, 2011.

  1. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

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    I see a lot of instances of what I view as government overstepping.

    Many people seem to view "big government" only as taxes, sometimes as overregulation (only of corporations, of course), and sometimes as too much spending. Personally, I think other forms of government overreach are far more onerous -- the types that truly infringe on people's rights.

    I'm going to start mentioning these here, in case they interest anybody else.

    What got me thinking about it yesterday was an article in the Journal about a case that went before the Supreme Court last month, re. whether blanket policies of strip-searching all suspects at jails are constitutional.

    This didn't get much press that I'm aware of, but to me, strip-searching somebody arrested for a minor charge clearly oversteps what is appropriate. Examples mentioned in the article (which also focuses on a divide b/t 2 attorneys re. how they should be handled) were a man arrested in NJ b/c he supposedly hadn't paid an old fine (he was jailed for 6 days and strip-searched twice, despite actually having paid that fine) and a nun who was strip-searched in SF after being arrested at a peace demonstration.

    The SC is expected to rule sometime before July.
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2011
  2. Harry Boy

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    I've avoided being stripped searched all of my life (Obey The Law)

    Sign says "No Parking" don't park there.
  3. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

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    Example #1 of somebody who has no concept of what "big government" or individual rights means.

    Said that you've lived a nearly an entire life (supposedly) yet have no inkling of the principles America was founded upon.
  4. patsfan13

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    I agree, this is very excessive.
  5. sdaniels7114

    sdaniels7114 Rookie

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    Chico, are you prepared to waive your right to sue the police if you are arrested and not strip searched and some other arrestee stabs you?

    I'm certainly not a lawyer, but I'd bet that you'd have a good cause of action vs the cops in that case.
  6. DarrylS

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    When I worked in corrections there was a lot of federal case law, and a lot of confusion about all of this.

    When we got a new detainee we could not just strip search them as it had to be dependent on their crime.. minor offenses did not warrant such, but there were ways of getting around this somewhat. Every new admission had to shower, so we could search their clothes....

    This crops up every once and a while, where I read some out of court settlement due to the overzealousness of a Police Force.. there was some national guidance by the DOJ about this, and at best it was very confusing and difficult to operationalize.

    Sometimes the whole strip search thing is used as an example type of thing in an effort to humiliate someone, and this is usually where the litigation enters. Same sex strip searches need to be the norm, privacy should be afforded and the whole process has to lend itself to some type of dignified process.

    Remember a California Strip Search Case, that essentially said that women viewing men in the nude violated the rights of male inmates... conversely the same standard applied to men viewing women in the nude as well.

    Hopefully the Supreme Court gives an easily understood decision that can be operationalized across the country.
  7. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

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    For a minor arrest, maybe the people arrested shouldn't be put with other inmates, particularly ones who may be violent.

    Police should also be able to detect a weapon without a strip search, shouldn't they? Metal detectors, regular frisking, even stripping to boxers and t-shirt would be far more appropriate to a minor arrest, wouldn't it?

    Are police truly incapable of detecting a weapon on a suspect wearing boxers and a shirt?
  8. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Just an observation from another perspective. Maybe it'll be something for you to think about, maybe not.

    You're all assuming that police strip search people for weapons or drugs - but that's not always the only reason. And even when it IS the reason, there are weapons and drugs which cannot be found in a simple "pat down."

    Thing is, like a hospital ER, a police department is responsible for the safety and well being of anyone being held in their facility. It's important for both of them to know exactly what that person is carrying or wearing on their person.

    I learned, the hard way, that people do and carry things that most people don't think about. We had a woman brought into the ER by the police - she'd been found combative and was refusing to answer any questions. She became more and more lethargic after her initial burst of anger and (fairly quickly) went downhill. We laid her down, cut off her clothes and proceeded to pump her stomach, thinking it was a drug overdose. But opps - no pills were found. Things went from bad to worse - we were administering Narcan (reverses opiates and heroin) and she'd perk up only to pass out again. By now we're frantic. I mean, what's up with this? Now she's intubated because she's barely breathing on her own. We get her a room in ICU, and right before we transfer her, she codes anyhow. (This is all in the space of an hour or so - and there are lots of us working and we're all pretty frantic. She's young, she's got no apparent reason for coding, and no history of illness.) We code her, we drug her, we shock her, we get her back. But barely. We're getting ready to do the transfer and decide that the floor won't like it if we don't get a clean hospital gown on her. I decide to tie this one in back rather than just drape it over her like we did when she first went bad. One of the nurses rolls her over so I can tie the gown and HOLY JESUS - she's wearing about 15 morphine patches up and down her back.

    Should we have checked her entire body the minute she came in? Hell yes.
    But we didn't.

    Did I check everyone else for the next 15 year?

    You better believe it.

    Long story, I know...but the point is - without eyeballing an entire body there's really no way of knowing what's going on. I've undressed people with razor blades taped to the inside of their thighs. I've seen people unconscious who'd had a balloon full of drugs stuffed up their anus.

    Cops and nurses really don't want to leave someone in cell/room alone (or with other prisoners or patients) if there's a possibility that they're suicidal and have the means to acheive that goal hidden on their person.

    Would you?
  9. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

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    So you're actually advocating not only strip searches but body cavity searches, and not only for police departments but also for ERs?

    As for razor blades or patches -- as I stated in my last post, even stripping to one's underwear is far more dignified and, I would think, would still serve practically the same purpose as the strip search.
  10. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    I'm not "advocating" anything. I was just offering some possible reasons.

    And no, ERs don't normally do cavity searches - but they will if it seems to be called for.

    And yes, we do "strip search" unconscious, lethargic or unruly patients. It's protocol. We're not looking for weapons, (although we do occasionally find them,) we're looking for bruises, injuries, gunshot wounds, lacerations, topical analgestics, etc.. Nevertheless, we're still looking.
  11. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

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    I understand the arguments that could be made. I just don't buy them.

    I don't think a person should get a body cavity search because she may have an unpaid speeding ticket, or because another suspect could be carrying heroin in his rear.

    Searches need to be reasonable, and I think strip searching a detainee who in no way appears violent is unreasonable.

    It's dangerous if we're going to grant police the ability to search based on every "what if" scenario. If that's the standard, shouldn't cars be searched every time a car is pulled over, and homes and places of business searched any time the police go to talk to a suspect?
  12. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    If you ask my youngest son and some of his friends they'll tell you that that's exactly what happens.

    It depends what you look like, apparently.
  13. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

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    I have no doubt it sometimes depends on what a person looks like -- which is wrong.
  14. Harry Boy

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    If it looks like a duck, many times it turns out to be a duck..
  15. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    And sometimes it doesn't.

    But to a person such as yourself, who judges others solely on skin color or religious garb, I'm sure it's an impossible fact to wrap your head around.
  16. Harry Boy

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    John The Baptist said "Tis far better to be safe than sorry"
  17. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

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    You don't understand much about the principles our nation was founded on, do you?
  18. Harry Boy

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    I grew up on the street, it never left me "REALITY"
  19. chicowalker

    chicowalker On the Roster

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    no excuse for hating America

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