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simple rules question...

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by SamBam39, Jan 20, 2007.

  1. SamBam39

    SamBam39 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I was just watching 'nfl's greatetst games' on the nfl network,
    and to kill the clock, steve young did the usual spike of the football right after the snap, and it got me thinking...

    why isn't that intentional grounding when a QB does that in that situation?
    It's between the hashmarks.


    kinda funny huh?

    is there a reason it's not?

    Just wondering...
     
  2. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve In the Starting Line-Up

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    Spiking the ball to stop the clock at the line is allowed. Throwing the ball away to avoid a loss or sack is not. Thats why when they do throw it away, its in the vicinity of a receiver.
     
  3. SamBam39

    SamBam39 Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    I had a feeling that was the answer.
    We all obvioulsy know why there needs to be a receiver in the area - to prove you might have been at least TRYING to complete a pass - so they can't be sure it was intentional. But if they are outside of the hashmarks, even that is ok - throwing it away to avoid the rush. I just hadn't heard that a spike at the line to kill the clock was atually specifically mentioned as being allowed.

    interesting.
     
  4. JediMind

    JediMind Practice Squad Player

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    Why is it ridiculous? The QB is never "under pressure" if they simply take the snap and ground the ball. You think they should have to run outside the hash marks and throw it away, or run a play when they just want to stop the clock?? The game would look kind of foolish, in my opinion, if the offense had to go through some stupid routine like that when everyone knows they just want to kill the clock. Its kind of an obvious thing, they want to stop the clock so they throw an "incomplete pass".
     
  5. JediMind

    JediMind Practice Squad Player

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    I understand what you are saying in that, but the fact is that the QB is not throwing the ball away to avoid a sack. He is grounding the ball to stop the clock. Why complicate things and make the offense do something unnecessary when the whole world knows what they want to do. Make it a spot foul and loss of down??
     
  6. BradfordPatsFan

    BradfordPatsFan In the Starting Line-Up

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    I think the NFL rules committee looks at it this way, while it helps the offense by stopping the clock, it also penalizes them by taking away a down. Isn't loss of down part of the penalty for grounding? It more or less sort of evens out.
     
  7. JediMind

    JediMind Practice Squad Player

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    Exactly, i guess they could take that yard away from where the center snapped it to where the QB spiked it, but why, he was never in danger of being sacked. An ambulance can speed if its got a reason to, thats breaking a rule. The difference is that its allowed because everyone knows why and it would be stupid and irrational to not allow it. Its kind of similar in football, its a frantic time of the game, they line up properly, spike the ball, and lose the down in exchange for stopping the clock.
     
  8. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up PatsFans.com Supporter

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    What happens if when the QB is trying to spike the football it hits the
    Center's ankle before hitting the ground and the opposing DT jumps on it ;)

    Why spike instead of kneeling? ;)
     
  9. JediMind

    JediMind Practice Squad Player

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    I guess it would be touching by an ineligible receiver, if the refs catch it. And why would the QB kneel? That doesn't stop the clock.
     
  10. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not a touching by an ineligible receiver if QB is in act of spiking the ball
    Yes doesn't kill clock.
     
  11. JediMind

    JediMind Practice Squad Player

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    Not sure about that, if he throws a pass and it hits the center before its the ground, it should be ineligible touch. I could be wrong though.
     
  12. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Brady did it once and it was still considered a spiked ball.
     
  13. JediMind

    JediMind Practice Squad Player

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    Ok, did the ref not see it or did he state "since the QB was in the act of spiking the ball, its not considered an ineligible touch"?
     
  14. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Here is explanation (2004) from former NFL ref Jerry Markbreit

    "Under a new interpretation regarding legally spiking the ball to stop the clock, the illegal touching rule is waived if the ball hits a lineman's leg on the way to the ground. Under the old rule, this would have been illegal touching of a forward pass, resulting in a five-yard penalty from the previous line of scrimmage and no 10-second runoff would have been assessed. The clock would have started on the snap, as it did in your play."
     
  15. patological

    patological Practice Squad Player

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    NFL Rules Book

    Rule 8 Section 3 Article 1

    Section 3 Fouls on Passing and Enforcement

    Article 1 Intentional grounding will be called when a passer, facing an imminent loss of yardage because of pressure from the defense, throws a forward pass without a chance of completion.

    Exception

    Note 3: A player under center is permitted to stop the game clock legally to save time if immediately upon receiving the snap he begins a continuous throwing motion and throws the ball directly forward toward the ground.
     
  16. Pujo

    Pujo Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    And note the "under center" part, that's what keeps a holder from spiking the ball on a bad snap during a FG attempt.
     
  17. kurtinelson

    kurtinelson In the Starting Line-Up

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    #37 Jersey


    Spiking is a "pass" play that stops the clock. Kneeling is a "run" play and the clock would continue to run.
     
  18. spacecrime

    spacecrime Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    Are you sure about this?

    Intentional grounding is throwing the ball away to avoid a sack. Spiking is not throwing the ball away to avoid a sack and therefore not intentional grounding.

    The only special rule I know of is the one that allows intentional grounding outside the tackle box.

    There is no big deal aobut spiking and allowing it is not ridiculous. The NFL couldn't stop it. All the QB has to do is take the snap and fling the ball out of bounds along the LOS. Ball will travel over the heads of a TE and WR and be legal.
     

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