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Similarities between Boy King and Adolf

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PressCoverage, Oct 10, 2007.

  1. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    a taboo topic for some... usually for those who will do anything to avoid an unflattering topic of their imperialistic crusading leader...

    now, of course the right will attempt to brand the issue and suggest we're saying Bush IS Hitler, and squawk about gas chambers and genocide and how dispicable it is to even mention the two men together... but we're not talking about a reincarnation... we're talking about profound similarities in thier rise to power, their hold on power, and the stripping of liberties in their respective countries...

    i have some 30 of them... but i'll offer 4 or 5 at a time...

    1) Like Hitler, President Bush was not elected by a majority, but was forced to engage in political maneuvering (lawyers' stalling) in order to gain office.

    2) Like Hitler, Bush began to curtail civil liberties in response to a well-publicized disaster, in Hitler’s case the Reichstag fire, in Bush’s case the 9-11 catastrophe.

    3) Like Hitler, Bush went on to pursue a reckless foreign policy without the mandate of the electorate and despite the opposition of most foreign nations.

    4) Like Hitler, Bush has increased his popularity with conservative voters by mounting an aggressive public relations campaign against foreign enemies. Just as Hitler cited international communism to justify Germany’s military buildup, Bush has used Al Qaeda and the so-called Axis of Evil to justify our current military buildup. Paradoxically none of the nations in this axis--Iraq, Iran and North Korea--have had anything to do with each other.
     
  2. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'll do this line-by-line, but hang with me for the summation, if you will.

    But the difficulty is, your shock value is in comparison not just to a dictator, but to "THE" dictator, the archetype of genocidal evil, not just destruction of civil liberties. Bear in mind, this always puts you on incredibly shaky ground for some of us, even those on the left.

    - Did you protest against the electoral college prior to the 2000 election? I too noted that Bush did not win the popular vote. In essentially a tie, the procedural battle shook out in Bush's favor. A divisive anomoly? Sure. But the historical anachronism of the electoral college needed to be done away with far prior to 2000.

    - "(lawyers' stalling)" is an odd way to describe Hitler's rise, although it touches on the issues of Bush's 2000 election (although he was the one that wanted the "stalling" over.) Hitler came in second in a multi-party system, in which nobody got a majority of the votes. Subsequently, Hindenburg appointed Hitler Chancellor, and subsequent to that (after the Reichstag fire and decrees,) Hindenburg dies and Hitler becomes President. There's no lawyer's stalling anywhere in the story.

    Absolutely accurate.

    Sort of. But you're rather overstating the case... the invasion of Iraq was a big blunder resulting in deaths in the hundreds of thousands. Hitler's foreign policy was a monumental tragedy, ultimately resulting in the deaths of 70 million. It's just not comparable.

    Another very common, nay, standard tactic. The point is well taken, but would be stronger if only Hitler and Bush had ever increased popularity with a conservative base by attacking foreign enemies, in the press or on the ground.

    Summation:
    As I've said elsewhere here, I have trouble with painting every right wing twit as Hitler, or painting every left wing twit as Stalin, Mao, Castro, or whoever the "bad guy" is today.

    The analogies here are mainly quite weak. For me it's enough to say he's a bad president, list the reasons and move on.

    After all, your opposition here doesn't even do that, by and large :) Why gild the lily? These comparisons do nobody any good; they're not those eerie chilling similarities the title leads one to expect -- they're common foibles of many leaders, both dictators and constitutionally elected leaders.

    PFnV
     
  3. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html

    I think it's easier for most to fall back on the Hitler analogy because they know that explaining fascism and it's dangers to people who don't know much about political theory or history can be difficult and the idea is that they will quickly cling to the scary concepts they recognize in Hitler. But it's a double-edged sword because it plays into the same inflammatory and overly simplistic accusations that have ravaged political discussion in this country, and it does basically undervalue the plight of Jews who are victims of one of the worst and most horrifically methodical genocides in U.S. history.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2007
  4. PatsFanInVa

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    Very well-written, and far more pursuasive; but then, it is less reliant on shock value while treating the same theme. PCov, take a look - that's how you get away with calling someone a fascist!

    (I now await Ms. Wolf's debunking; I've seen her play fast and loose with facts before, so have at it, righties. The only rules are, you have to demonstrate that the particulars she cites are factually inaccurate - you can't just call her names.)

    PFnV
     
  5. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    shock value? i'm pointing out similarities... it's not my fault Bush and his enablers are repeating history in many frightening ways... as for shaky ground, we're way past pleasantries here... the world sits on the brink, and the precisely wrong road has been paved for some 60 years by corporate interests... Boy King here is capitalizing and speeding up the process, under the guise of religious conviction...

    never liked it... never... will agree with you that it needed to be done away with, but i don't think the fact that i didn't protest 15 years ago disallows me to point out that more people in this country wanted Al Gore to lead the nation than wanted George Bush...

    the lawyers' stalling referred to the GOPs efforts to delay the resolution of the recount conflict right up to hours before the Dec. 11 deadline in 2000...

    YOU are overstating the case... who said the similarity needed to be mirrors of eachother based on death count? because 70 million haven't perished (yet), this isn't a valid similarity? the point is the world governing body did not approve military force for Bush... three of the five veto nations were against invasion of a sovereign nation that posed no real threat to the west... weapons inspectors did not finish their work, and pleaded to be allowed to do so after admitting they were finding absolutely nothing to indicate an imminent threat (David Kay)... and the Bush League plowed ahead and let the bombs fall anyway, killing some 12,000 civilians the first 2-3nights...

    no one is saying it's exclusive to Bush and Hitler alone... Bush did increase popularity with his base, and it played out in the '04 election...


    that's your opinion, despite conceding one similarity, and half of two others... regardless, i'm not painting every right wing twit... just these clowns... and doing so because they came to power on the heels of the PNAC, which diagramed everything they had planned to perpetrate some 7 years beforehand.... actually, the comparisons and the exposure do a whole new electorate a lot of good.... if you don't feel this nation is swiftly devolving into a fascist state as Peak Oil grips us all, well then all i can tell you is that i profoundly disagree and we won't go quietly in '08....

    now then, a new batch of similarities....
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2007
  6. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    By Edward Jayne, Dissident Voice...

    5. Like Hitler, Bush has promoted militarism in the midst of economic recession (or depression as it was called during the thirties). First he used war preparations to help subsidize defense industries (Halliburton, Bechtel, Carlyle Group, etc.) and presumably the rest of the economy on a trickle-down basis. Now he turns to the very same corporations to rebuild Iraq, again without competitive bidding and at extravagant profit levels.

    6. Like Hitler, Bush displays great populist enthusiasm in his patriotic speeches, but primarily serves wealthy investors who subsidize his election campaigns and share with him their comfortable lifestyle. As he himself jokes, he treats these individuals at the pinnacle of our economy as his true political “base.”

    7. Like Hitler, Bush envisages our nation’s unique historic destiny almost as a religious cause sanctioned by God. Just as Hitler did for Germany, he takes pride in his “providential” role in spreading his version of Americanism throughout the entire world.

    8. Like Hitler, Bush promotes a future world order that guarantees his own nation’s hegemonic supremacy rather than cooperative harmony under the authority of the United Nations (or League of Nations).
     
  7. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    :cool:
    Oookay. Your thread, your cut n pastes.

    I still think Naomi Wolf does a better job on a more significant premise, i.e., necessary prerequisites to fascism. I still also think that Wolf's piece, while less transparently a hatchet job, is likely a marvel of misleading phrasing, but I base this on earlier issues she's had with fact elsewhere. Still - I'd like to see the article examined under a critical lens.

    I am both tired, however, and have to go to work.

    Maybe when I'm fired for bleary eyed starts, I can say I was hounded from my job by left-wing fanatics. :D

    PFnV
     
  8. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    You mentioned to me in another thread that I should read the article, so I have read it. I am not exactly sure what you want me to respond to but there were a few paragraphs that stood out - I just don't have time to respond to every ridiculous accusation in the article but for example:

    "At first, the people who are sent there are seen by citizens as outsiders: troublemakers, spies, "enemies of the people" or "criminals". Initially, citizens tend to support the secret prison system; it makes them feel safer and they do not identify with the prisoners. But soon enough, civil society leaders - opposition members, labour activists, clergy and journalists - are arrested and sent there as well."

    We have sent some terrorists and enemy combatants to Guantanamo. Get back to me with this ridiculous statement when Bush sends politcal opponents over there, ok..? The part of the paragraph I emboldened just isn't happening.

    "Groups of angry young Republican men, dressed in identical shirts and trousers, menaced poll workers counting the votes in Florida in 2000."

    Gimme a break. :rolleyes: This paragraph is too laughable to even address.

    "Bush supporters in state legislatures in several states put pressure on regents at state universities to penalise or fire academics who have been critical of the administration.

    Of course, there are no such examples of this given in the article. This can't be serious... if we went after every professor critical of the administration, there would be no more universities left considering how ultra-liberal their agendas are.

    "Most recently, the administration purged eight US attorneys for what looks like insufficient political loyalty.

    Which is about 40 attorneys fewer than Clinton fired for political reasons. :rolleyes:

    Bottom line is this: Get back to me when Bush suspends the Constitution. And I don't mean the moonbats' interpretation of the Constitution... I mean, something like he suspends next year's Presidential election and/or the inauguration coming in January 2009. If Bush is so horrible then I am sure a democrat will easily win election and completely reverse all the fascist things the Bush administration has done since 2001. Right...? Right........?
     
  9. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Oh no! We've now agreed twice in a 24 hour span! :eek:

    I'm pretty much on the same page with you here PV. The bolded portion is on point. It's very difficult to tie the political ideologies of different nations & it's leaders directly to that which we have here at home. There are some general similarities of course, but people err when they try to over simplify the relationship. Everything is not Coke or Pepsi. That seems to happen far too much these days. People simply make everything a matter of left or right, and it's just not that easy.

    One point which I will ask you about, is the portion about the electoral college. Are you opposed to it?
     
  10. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Whats the overall point to the comparison? Is Press Coverage trying to say that if left unchecked, Bush would eventually commit heinous atrocities like Hitler did?

    If Bush is still in office 2 years from today then we can relive this conversation.
     
  11. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Revisionist history at it's best. If you tried to say that the world wasn't in favor of invading Iraq, then I'll give your position the credit it deserves. However, when you try to rewrite the facts of what transpired in the lead up to 2003, I can't. The bottom line is that GW had congressional authority, and the UN worded their resolution in a manner with which we could invade, and they could take the high road. Furthermore, inspectors didn't give Iraq the okidoki since Saddam was supposed to come clean and didn't. The fact that it ends up he didn't have any is irrelevent to the situation leading up to 2003. People who hate Bush, and hate this war, which is their right mind you, constantly try to rewrite the facts of the years surrounding the initial invasion.
     
  12. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    wow... that's a stretch, Turd...

    anyhow...

    9. Like Hitler, Bush quickly makes and breaks diplomatic ties, and he offers generous promises that he soon abandons, as in the cases of Mexico, Russia, Afghanistan, and even New York City. The same goes for U.S. domestic programs. Once Bush was elected, many leaders of these programs learned to dread his making any kind of an appearance to praise their success, since this was almost inevitably followed by severe cuts in their budgets.

    10. Like Hitler, Bush scraps international treaties, most notably the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, the Biological Weapons Convention, the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, the Convention on the Prohibition of Land Mines, the Chemical Weapons Convention, the Kyoto Global Warming Accord, and the International Criminal Court.

    11. Like Hitler, Bush repeats lies often enough that they come to be accepted as the truth. Bush and his spokesmen argued, for example, that they had taken every measure possible to avoid war, than an invasion of Iraq would diminish (not intensify) the terrorist threat against the U.S., that Iraq was linked with Al Qaeda, and that nothing whatsoever had been achieved by U.N. inspectors to warrant the postponement of U.S. invasion plans. All of this was false. They also insisted that Iraq hid numerous weapons it did not possess since the mid-190s, and they refused to acknowledge the absence of a nuclear weapons program in Iraq since the early nineties. As perhaps to be expected, they indignantly accused others of deception and evasiveness.

    12. Like Hitler, Bush incessantly shifted his arguments to justify invading Iraq--from Iraq’s WMD threat to the elimination of Saddam Hussein, to his supposed Al Qaeda connection, to the creation of Iraqi democracy in the Middle East as a model for neighboring states, and back again to the WMD threat. As soon as one excuse for the war was challenged, Bush advanced to another, but only to shift back again at another time.
     
  13. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    It must be nice to have the ultra-liberal moderator completely ignore your blatant violation of the "4-paragraph (plus a URL)" rule of the forum - the same rule he reiterated no more than 2 weeks ago.

    I guess in here some members are more equal than others.
     
  14. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    did you get beat up a lot in grade school? sure seems like it...
     
  15. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Whoops..!! Looks like I hit a nerve from Mr. Civility..!! :rofl:

    What are you so mad about, wimpy guy..? You are the beneficiary of the liberal moderator's blatant double standard... you should be happy to be above the rules the rest of us have to follow..!!
     
  16. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    lol.... you never hit a nerve... but how ironic that you'd suggest such... when i routinely send you into neurotic gridlock...

    you don't follow any rules, and i only talk to you that way because you've earned it... keep running your goofy, cowardly, devisive mouth, and i'll be right here to hold you accountable...
     
  17. PatsFanInVa

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    It made little sense to me (except as an historical vestige) prior to 2000, and it makes little sense to me today.

    To "protect the rights of smaller states" seems like a much less valid justification, now that we have a mature understanding that the United States isn't a coalition of "states" in the original sense, where "state" meant a country.

    If the U.S. is one country, I do think that the candidate with the majority of the votes should win. Do I therefore think Gore should have won in 2000? Only had we already changed the system. The horse was out of the barn prior to that election, and it's disingenuous to claim that it's unfair for Gore to have lost. He lost by the rules, which unfortunately allow the minority candidate to win, in a close race.

    Yeah, I'd say let's get rid of the electoral college.

    You?

    PFnV
     
  18. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Given the limitations on pasting from other sources I will comment on Wolfe's article by onlly referencing the title to her 10 points.

    1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy

    Al Queda had been at war with the US for a number of years, as evidenced by the Khobar Towers bombimg, the attack on the US embassy in Kenya, the attack on the USS Cole and so on. The difference being that 9-11 was impossible to ignore as opposed to the other attacks which the US government didn't take seriously.

    Al Queda declared war on the US we didn't take him seriously until 9-12.

    We hardly 'invoked' the enemy (Al Queda), we mere got around to dealing with the reality of Islamofascism.

    Her assertation that we "Creating a terrifying threat" is absurd. This phrasing implies that Al Queda was fabticated. Where is HER evidence of this?



    2. Create a gulag

    Well MS Wolfe I have red the 3 volumes of the Gulag Archipelago, comparing Gitmo to the Gulag is silly. First the Gulag was used to imprisoning citizens of the country where the Gulag was located. Gitmo is being used to detain foreign enemy combatants, no US citizens. The Gulag housed millions of prisioners. Girmto holds less than 1,000 enemy combatants.

    Beyond the obivious differences, in scope and intent there is the difference in the treatment of those imprisoned. Prisioners at Gitmo are allowed and aided in practicing their religion, they have gained weight while imprisoned, they have been fed a diet in compliance with their religious dictates, The prisoners haven't been murdered by the guards, indeed the prisioners have thrown feces at and attacked guards without retaliation (beyond being restrained from attacking the guards.

    I don't recall Solzhenitsyn citing anything like the examples above in his discription of the Gulag. If someone can find example of the benign treatment terrorist receive at Gitmo in the documentation surrounding the Gulag please bring it to our attention.

    Trying to compare Gitmo to the Gulag is laughable.



    3. Develop a thug caste


    Brownshirts??? :singing:

    Well lets just dispense with this one quickly. the 'thug class' she cites (the Brownshirts) operated inside their native country, the security contractors (she doesn't cite specifics) work outside the US (they are in Iraq for the most part). I don't see them terrorizing US citizens.


    Don't want to waste anymore time responding to the rest it is drivel. If MS Wolfe had ever experienced or looked into real repression she would be embarressed by this article.

    Perhaps this sort of article is indicative of the lack of History education in this country.
     
  19. QuiGon

    QuiGon Banned

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    Personal attacks in this forum will not be tolerated. At least that's what the liberal moderator keeps telling me... boy you sure do make it easier and easier for me to make him look like a complete hypocrite when I need to - thanks, buddy..!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2007
  20. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    The rules of civility only apply to non-liberals or "second class citizens" as we are known around here. The Elite libbers dont need to follow the rules as they are merely doing us savages a favor by pointing out the errors of our ways with "tough love" in the hopes that we too will be enlightened to the progressive cause.
     

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