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Sick? In an Accident? Doctor's "Conscience" decides care!

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by PatsFanInVa, Dec 19, 2008.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, the Administration has pushed through a law allowing Doctors to refuse care, or information about care and where to obtain care, they conscientiously object to, effective the day before W leaves office. Obviously it was adopted to coddle those with objections to abortion. Ergo, they are not even obliged to tell patients where the "objectionable" procedure is available.

    However...

    - What if I'm in an accident and the only hospital around happens to be supported by Jehovah's Witnesses, who don't believe in transfusions?

    - What if I'm in the country, and my local hospital decides AIDS is God's judgment on homosexuals... and I've got AIDS?

    - What if a woman is trying to obtain birth control, but the locals where she lives just don't believe in it?

    Etc., etc., etc.

    And of course there is the central issue around which this turns, abortion. If you don't want to provide medical procedures, why the hell did you get into the medical field?

    The patient's interests are definitely not the central concern in this measure.

    Okay, now that Pandora's box is open, I'm going to work.

    Love you all,

    PFnV
  2. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    What I never understand about laws is why it's such a big deal when an unfair law is passed. Can't laws just as easily be over-written by the next administration or congress?

    No law is untouchable, so what's the biggie?
  3. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    It just adds to the perception that Bush is a prick...a stupid prick, but a prick nonetheless.
  4. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    You know what this is about, it is so Pharmacists don't have to fill baby kill pills. RU486

    I don't know were you live, but I know there is about 100 pharmacies in my area.

    The politics of fear, look who's playing now.
  5. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, PFIV is the same dude who didn't want ultrasounds to be available to potential abortion recipients, so take the fear mongering for what's it worth.
  6. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

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    I see the straw men are taking a beating today.
  7. lostjumper

    lostjumper Rookie

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    First of all, not one of those scenarios if even remotely realistic here in the states. There's no point in discussing them.

    Also, if you think an abortion is just another medical procedure, well, there's no point in discussing that with you either.

    This whole thread was just thrown together to try and get people like harryboy to react and flip out. Hopefully they will just ignore your mindless drivel and not take the bait.
  8. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Isn't this in violation of the hypocratic oath???

    NOVA Online | Survivor M.D. | The Hippocratic Oath—Modern Version

  9. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Rookie

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    That he is.....can't argue with you on that! :disagreement:
  10. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #87 Jersey

    He looks like one sometimes ... what's up with that.
  11. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Just wind 'em up and watch 'em go!

    First off the facts and a link: This is a federal rule, hence the ability of the Administration to push it in its death throes. Probably had the pedal to the metal on this one. It's a reg implementing several laws on the books, most likely fromt the GOP heyday of 2000-2006:

    The Bush administration has made federal laws to allow doctors to refuse to participate in abortions because of religious or moral objections. -- Newsday.com

    I certainly do hope this rule is simply overturned next year, Darryl. It does indeed obviously violate the hypocratic oath, as do the laws they address.

    As to the frothing expected and virtually invited from other commenters here:

    I've never fought the availabililty of an ultrasound for a patient requesting one. I have been against the forcing of an ultrasound on a woman seeking an abortion. They are not related procedures, medically. The only value of forcing such a procedure is to "win the hearts and minds" of women trying to make difficult choices, essentially making medical personnel do the work of the anti-choice picketers on the sidewalk in front of the clinic.


    Someone mentioned RU486, with a colorful description "the baby-killer pill". Yes, any fanatical pharmacist who may refuse to fill such a subscription is covered, and this is an important implication of this law. The pill, usually called the morning-after pill, causes a fertilized egg to be flushed out of the body -- before the point when anybody can argue that it is a "life", without recourse to a spirtual interpretation. Medically, it's a fertilized egg. It's not walking, talking, thinking, praying, or planning its wedding. It's the potential you are fighting about on that one... not "where the line is."

    This starts us on the "so what" road: i.e., the astute savant who opined above that "nothing bad is remotely thinkable in this country," or something to that effect. Perhaps he's never lived anywhere rural, or for that matter, needed emergency medical services. They don't drive your ambulance to the hospital of your choice (particularly, as is likely, if you're not coherent.)

    Under these laws and the recent rulemaking, the ambulance driver can drive you an extra half hour to avoid a hospital with proper medical care -- running the risk that you die to salve your conscience -- and take you to one that's more in line with the dictates of his conscience, say, one which does not provide abortions.

    From the Washington Post:

    Similarly, it may be one big problem to creating Jehovah's Witness hospitals, that they would be shut down for not permitting various forms of invasive care, say, surgery or transfusions. Not anymore. While I doubt JWs are planning a rash of hospital-building, there is a possibility under these laws that such facilities can pop up... and that you, the transfusion-believing public may end up there.

    Me, I don't get as worked up about the "what ifs" of the law as the obvious implications, such as the driver refusing to take me to the closest provider of care with facilities that match my needs, the doctor refusing care, the pharmatic refusing legal treatments.

    There's only one standard we should be applying to the availability of medical care, and that's the need for medical care (in the case of emergencies) and the desire for care (in the case of elective products and procedures.) Supernatural beings that keep you up at night are not part of this patient's decisions. If you want your conscience to feel better, be a researcher. If you want patients to be well, be a doctor. If you want to provide pharma products based on a controlled system, be a pharmacist.

    If you want to write rules and laws be in government, and if you want to interpret scripture, quoth the bard, get thee to a nunnery.

    PFnV
  12. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Good analysis Virginia Pats Fan.. the devil is usually in the details..
  13. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    Abortion itself violates the Hippocratic oath. Nice argument.

    Do no harm, are you willing to be sucked through a blender with a shop vac?
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2008
  14. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No, PFIEL, I'm not willing to. In fact I would strenously argue against it. Not so a few cells attached to a woman's innerds. "Nice argument," to coin a phrase.

    One is on much more solid ground with anti-choice zealotry the closer one gets to birth, which is culturally the line that has been drawn around the notion of "murder" across societies for most of history.

    Pretty intellectually weak response.

    PFnV
  15. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    So does the Mensa society condone murder?

    Do no harm?
    [​IMG]

    Mengele would be proud.
  16. NEPatriot

    NEPatriot Banned

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    If a medical staff doesn't like you, you are not going to see a doctor. They will use this new rule as an excuse to deny your medical treatment.

    This is BS.
  17. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    To my knowledge, Mensa hasn't taken any specific stance in favor of murder; since murder is illegal, and since no viable society exists where it has been condoned, in the absence of any shocking statement to the contrary, my guess would be that the vast majority of Mensa members would be against murder.

    By contrast, abortion has been practiced legally in many viable societies over history. This is a very good argument for the distinction between the two practices, and I thank you for bringing it to the fore.

    PFnV

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