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Should we raise taxes to pay the deficit?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Jun 6, 2009.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    While most conservatives obviously think we need to reduce the size of government, that's just not going to happen under Obama. Therefore, the question is whether Obama should raise taxes to better pay for all his spending?

    With Reagan and Bush, the feeling was we could cut taxes and increase spending (to what were record levels). Evidently many conservatives feel that is no longer the case. Given that we have a fairly liberal government that is spending loads, how do you think the government should pay for it?
  2. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Are these rhetorical questions, Patters?

    I think your post reflects the attitude of mainstream America. Most have simply thrown up their hands and accepted the FACT that "our" federal government (it actually belongs to the corporations completely, now:mad:) is in a siphon mode that will take the middle class to the woodshed to line the pockets of the corporations. We have become the ultimate scam enablers.

    Keep voting for The Party!
  3. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think we should pay for it with progressive taxes. Eisenhower's tax rate went up to a 90% income tax bracket for uninvested income over $1,000,000. I think we need to do something that like, though maybe we won't have to go up to 90%. I really do think we need to pay for more of the spending. Letting our deficit grow this much I think is a little too risky (though I don't think it's insane).
  4. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Don't like taxes for the feds, in general. I see this as a way of enabling the Military Industrial Complex when they should be the first to be gutted along with subsidies to corn farmers and petroleum companies. The federal government has been using taxes to kill innocent people for way too long.

    That being said, I don't know enough about the specifics of taxation theory and policy to throw out specific numbers and allocations. I favor a total overhaul of the system and the abolition of the IRS in favor of a comprehensive sales tax. Everyone used to oppose it a few years ago because they said it would "hurt the economy". Well, we never got it and the economy is failing anyways. Why was that? Was it because of a sales tax? NO! It was because the regulations of the financial institutions were removed in the 80's and the government spent like a drunken sailor while printing money with no real backing. We've also failed to develop alternative energy. There's lots of reasons to go along with those.

    Point is, the initial convulsions of a national sales tax would not have been any worse than what we are experiencing today, and we could have come out the other end with a better system, IMO.
  5. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    A consumption tax would be a good way to go Wistah. The problem is that the gubmit would have less control over the people, if one were implemented.
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If we took away the current income tax, someone earning $10,000/year would see their income grow by 10% and someone earning $1,000,000/year would see their income grow by 35%, so it's an extremely regressive proposal.

    I read an article a few years ago that I believe said that to raise the same amount of money that the government currently raises, you'd need to have a sales tax of 23%, not including state sales taxes. If that was accurate, millionaires would clearly make out in this system, but not the poor.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2009
  7. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Yeah...we can't have that, can we...:mad:
  8. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    Link?

    You don't think rich people buy more stuff? Sounds like your info might be tainted by those who are in favor of government social engineering. I mean, how could the government control us if they don't have our money? Refer to the linkage between the drinking age and highway funding. It's like crck. The feds are the dealers and the states are the junkies.
  9. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, this link is from Cato, a conservative think tank, that says the tax would need to be 18%:

    Replacing the Federal Income Tax

    But, others have said it would need to be even higher.

    Why wouldn't the government get our money if we had a national sales tax. It would be the same problem, and the tax would slowly creep up.

    Whether or not your complaints about government spending are correct, the fact is we have to find ways to cover what we spend. If you have a kid who goes out and uses your credit card and spends $1000, you still have to pay for it, no matter how wrong that kid was.

    The idea of a national sales tax is extremely regressive, but like an income tax could be set up at a high enough rate to pay for our spending.
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2009
  10. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    I have to believe that a progressive tax scale is unconstitutional, but has never been challenged.

    I also don't believe that the government belongs to corporations or the military, people who receive "benefits" control the government, it is who every politician panders to. I get help to think the mantra of tax the rich is to get votes from the "jealous" crowd.

    I'd oppose any kind of tax increase without at least a 25% cut in the federal government, starting with abolishing the IRS and department of Education.


    That is just flat thievery.
  11. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    NST is not "regressive". It is environmentally sound as it would reduce the amount of crap that would end up in the landfills. It would also enable each family to decide how much they can save as opposed to how much they consume. It would retrain our social habits away from our throw-away mentality, consumptive gluttony and towards saving for the future. Companies might even be forced to build things that cost more but last longer!

    Best of all, it is the ultimate tool for economic democracy. Each family or person could decide how much they want to feed the Fed Monster which includes foreign aid, corporate subsidies and the War Machine. Less Americans would be in jail without the IRS. You either pay your taxes when you buy something or you don't . No delinquency or evasion. Accountants and tax lawyers would need to find a job that improves people's lives.
  12. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    No thanks. Saying "cutting spending just isn't going to happen" isn't a good enough answer. obama SAID he would cut spending. The fact that he's a liar doesn't mean taxes should be raised.

    Go away with your tax increases.
  13. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    BTW, raising tax rates won't necessarily raise more revenue. For example, I am done paying more. Raise tax rates and I'm going to search out tax free investments, etc, to get my taxable income down. We're done with more taxes, Patters.
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Then you don't think our deficits will do severe damage to our economy? You think, it's better for the United States to have outrageous deficits than to have substantially higher taxes? I think there must be a better balance than the one Obama has in order to reduce the threat of inflation.

    Also, Obama will cut spending, especially relative to this year.
  15. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    Of course it will, obama is absolutely killing us. But we can't keep adding more taxes. We are already taxed up the ass with a dozen different ones and the gas tax is guaranteed to go up. The only was I would even consider being OK with a tax increase would be if the government showed it was serious too by cutting dollars in absolute spending (no "cuts of increases") from before the first bailout. If real spending was cut I would possibly be willing to meet halfway. As it is we can't keep up however much you increase taxes.
  16. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    You think that if the government raises taxes to , say 40% on average, and then wipes out the deficit (hypothetically), that the government will continue to cut wasteful spending and then lower our taxes to a maintenance level? You really think that's possible?

    Don't be a sucker. Politicians will continue to raise taxes and spending as long as they're able to. This is not a left-right thing as much as you'd like it to be. It's an us-vs.-them thing
  17. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Understand that it's people who think like Patters, who are running the gubmit right now. If that doesn't scare the bejesus out of you, I don't know what would.
  18. Michael

    Michael Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    NO!

    Everyone at my company had to take a 10% cut in pay last year. It was either that or more lay-offs and we already layed-off 1/3 of the workforce. I don't want to give 1 more dime to the government. There is still PLENTY that can be cut from the budget. Both federally and at the state level.
  19. BelichickFan

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    #24 Jersey

    A 10% government cut is a really good idea. Federal salaries. Defense spending. Social Security. EVERYTHING. A 10% cut and an indefinite spending freeze on REAL dollars.
  20. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    #75 Jersey

    ...and we should stop printing dollars, too.

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