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Should the troops support the people, or should the people support the troops?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Real World, Feb 2, 2007.

  1. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    Hmmm....


    http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2007/01/the_troops_also_need_to_suppor.html

    The Troops Also Need to Support the American People

    Editor's Note: More than 900 comments have been posted to this entry -- making the page too long for some computers to download and display quickly and properly. We're therefore allowing no new comments to be added to the page. Please feel free to add any comments you might have on the topic of this entry to later posts by William Arkin on the same topic, including "A Note to My Readers on Supporting the Troops".

    -------------

    I've been mulling over an NBC Nightly News report from Iraq last Friday in which a number of soldiers expressed frustration with opposition to war in the United States.

    I'm sure the soldiers were expressing a majority opinion common amongst the ranks - that's why it is news - and I'm also sure no one in the military leadership or the administration put the soldiers up to expressing their views, nor steered NBC reporter Richard Engel to the story.

    I'm all for everyone expressing their opinion, even those who wear the uniform of the United States Army. But I also hope that military commanders took the soldiers aside after the story and explained to them why it wasn't for them to disapprove of the American people.

    ......

    Through every Abu Ghraib and Haditha, through every rape and murder, the American public has indulged those in uniform, accepting that the incidents were the product of bad apples or even of some administration or command order.

    Sure, it is the junior enlisted men who go to jail. But even at anti-war protests, the focus is firmly on the White House and the policy. We don't see very many "baby killer" epithets being thrown around these days, no one in uniform is being spit upon.

    So, we pay the soldiers a decent wage, take care of their families, provide them with housing and medical care and vast social support systems and ship obscene amenities into the war zone for them, we support them in every possible way, and their attitude is that we should in addition roll over and play dead, defer to the military and the generals and let them fight their war, and give up our rights and responsibilities to speak up because they are above society?

    ........

    America needs to ponder what it is we really owe those in uniform. I don't believe America needs a draft though I imagine we'd be having a different discussion if we had one.
  2. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    Any soldier who feels "frustration" over opposition to the occupation of Iraq needs to remenber that they are servants of the United States. While I understand their frustration, they must understand that the only purpose for their existence is to do the will of the American people and defend them from external threats. They are in no way above any American who lives honestly and obeys the law. They want to have a debate, quit the army and call a radio talk show. And that goes for those who are opposed to the war and feel the urge to ***** about their situation in a public venue.
  3. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Interesting that as a Libertarian you don't feel they have the same right to express their opinion that you do. Suprising you are usually consistent on these issues.
  4. Seymour93

    Seymour93 Rookie

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    Yeah it would be completely different.

    If we had a draft, support for the war would be around 15%. The troops would be subjected to Vietnam era harassment. The number of people on drugs would skyrocket. Crime would go through the roof. The amount of people receiving benefits from the government would triple. What a horrible idea.

    It's not the military's fault the war is unpopular, it's Bush and the neocon's for putting them in a situation where they were doomed for failure.
  5. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    "Foreign and domestic."

    That is all. :D
  6. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    Did you guys even read the entire article at the link?
  7. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think it's easy to understand where many of the troops are coming from. They have a natural bias, since it would be hard to admit that they are fighting an ignoble or wrong war. It would be hard for them to accept that their buddies died and they risked their lives in vain. It would be hard to admit that those they trusted, the CiC, deceived them or needlessly put them in harm's way.

    We have put the soldiers in a terrible situation, but now that we've made a bad choice, we have to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT and end the war. Sure, some soldiers will come home depressed, but at least they'll be alive. The troops certainly have as much right to expect us to boost their morale as we have the right to try to save their lives. Unfortunately, we can't do both.
  8. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    Of course it would because you'd be drafting people like the guy who wrote the column. This guy seems to think the troops should STFU about people like him, Hanoi Jane, and the azzwipes holding this sign:

    [​IMG]
  9. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    Part of their point is that they support the mission, so you should therefore support them. I don't think enough people understand that.
  10. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    YOUR RIGHT ON THIS ONE and we would also have an Army full of gang bangers, junkies, pedophiles, cowards, drunks, morons and sniveling liberals.

    THAt'S WHY THE RACIST CHARLIE RANGEL "WANTS" THE DRAFT.

    AMERICA NOW HAS SOLDIERS THAT WANT TO BE SOLDIERS THEY VOLUNTERED.
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2007
  11. Seymour93

    Seymour93 Rookie

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    How many ******* times do you have to post that disgusting picture? We get it already, there's a man in balaclava that thinks he's some ultra-cool Cuban revolutionary.

    Do you not believe the military has any stake in public opinion? They are protecting America, home of the American people after all. They're should be mutual respect but ultimately the final decision comes down to the voters. That's the beauty of a democracy.
  12. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    A) We have that in the military now. I hate to break it to people, but putting a uniform on someone doesn't make them a hero, or even a good person. The military is just like civilian society, with the same great people, good people, jackasses, and scumbags.

    B) Rangel wants the draft to prove the point that politicians would be less likely to wage war as a first resort if their own kids were at risk.
  13. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    I'll post it as many times as I feel fit to. I don't think enough people know that these retards are plentiful. Some in here still defend Hanoi Jane. The fact that the protest had her speaks volumes of those who supported it.

    My 2 cents anyhow.
  14. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    You'll always have scumbags and good people, no matter what you do. Police departments, fire, the church, political office, the UN, you name it. That's life.
  15. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    That's my point.
  16. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Once again, the left is all for free speech, until the speech disagrees with them!!

    Imagine being a member of a political party whose sole goal is the defeat of the United States!!!
  17. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    :rolleyes:

    When did people as a whole stop thinking for themselves? Did they ever start, I wonder?
  18. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    Wow, as Pedro once said, "where you been man?" :D
  19. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    I think for myself. You seem to. Hmmm....Wistah, and..... :D

    Seriously though, there aren't too many independent thinkers. There are lot's and lot's of sheeple though. :(
  20. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    SOrry beeen working alot. Travelling to many different states, yet arresting the same people when I get there.

    That and I'm still can not believe that we lost that game!
  21. Real World

    Real World Rookie

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    Arresting? What do you do?

    Yeah, real bummer bout that game. I haven't watched a single football show since. I can't bare the thought of having to listen to a Peyton fest. Great QB, cool guy, but man the MSM's glorification of him realy bugs me. :mad:

    He is a phenomenal player though.
  22. Fixit

    Fixit Rookie

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    I haven't watched a sports show since.

    That's sad.
  23. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Thats Bagdhad Bob, he had america laughing their a$ses off during the Iraq invasion, I loved the fu-cking guy his best line came when the American Troops were battering down the doors of the TV Station he was braodcasting from and he is looking into the camera yelling "We're Winning, We've Got The Americans On The Run, We Expect Them To Surrender At Any Moment Now, Praise Allah, God Is Great" then the TV went blank and Bob was hauled off to jail.

    If Fox News was smart they would bring Bagdhad Bob over here and give him his own show, let him say anything he wants. Katie's viewers would drop from eight to three.
    :bricks:
  24. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Rookie

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    I was speaking from the viewpoint of the military. As Americans, they have the right to speak freely, but in the capacity of a US soldier, At least when I was in the AF, we were discouraged from speaking out in this manner publicly. That was for the brass. It is an inconsistency and a double standard...true.
  25. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    HAHAHAHHAHA Guess you weren't around during Viet Nam when ewe had a draft believe me none of the Kennedy kids (just an example of the privileged class) were in any position to get drafted. During my time in the USAF I didn't come across the children of the rich or politicians. Of course the AF was a big group.

    Charlie wanted the draft to try and stir up the anti war effort. Sorta like Reid and Kerry whining about Global Warming today when they voted against Kyoto when it was before the Senate, just demagoguery.
  26. gomezcat

    gomezcat It's SIR Moderator to you Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I can see where the soldiers are coming from, but the point about a democracy is that people have the right to protest against policies they don't like. That way, the Republicans could protest against Clinton's intervention in Bosnia and the Dems could protest against the current war (or at least, they can, having voted for it in the first place). People have a right to say what they think and I personally think that includes the soldiers. It is INCREDIBLY dangerous for us to support wars regardless. What happens if President Hillary Clinton, suffering from a scandal with a male intern, decides to invade Iran to boost her chances of re-election? Do you support the invasion, even when the result is Tel Aviv being hit by a newly developed ICBM from Iran?

    For the record, I was pro- Iraq invasion and am actually in favour of keeping troops there. I suspect I was wrong about the invasion as I feel we may have made the region more unstable. At least part of the invasion's problems are down to incredibly naive thinking in the Administration and there are some measures (sealing the border, keeping Iraqi security forces, stronger law and order) which really could have made things better.

    That said, we now have a bigger responsibility not to f**k things up by withdrawing prematurely- don't forget that US troops aren't the only ones who are there.
  27. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The draft laws were extremely unfair. Rangel's proposal, not that I support it, would supposedly close all loopholes. Obviously, even if the Congress decided on a draft, they would reject Rangel's bill and introduce one with plenty of loopholes.

    Heres how Cheney (another example of the privileged class) avoided service:

    http://www.slate.com/id/2097365/
  28. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They all know what Rangle is doing, he wants RIOTS in the streets.

    This Racist bastard and the rest of those two faced Bush Haters better not start with their
    "Africa War Sh!t" if they do thats when the Neo Cons should start the "Riots"

    Africans are no better than Iraqi's.

    If Rangle should ever get his draft going and then wants to send your sons to Africa then pack your kids bags and send them to Canada or have them run off to Europe like Billy Blue Dress did.

    If there are problems in the world let those Crooked Scum Bags in the UN handle it, America should never try to help anybody again, they all hate us so f-ck them.

    Leave the Middle East for Israel to handle, Israel has Nukes and Israel will use them if that scummy looking little creep that runs Iran pushes them to far, Israel would never take the sh!t America does.

    Keep America Safe because the Radical Muslim will be trying to kill us for years to come.
    :bricks:
  29. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Rangek didn't even vote for his own proposal when it was brought up. This is pure political grandstanding, sort of like the dems who attack Bush for not adopting Kyoto (Reid Kerry Kennedy, and a lot of other dems) when they all voted against Kyoto when it cam up for a vote in 97.
  30. fleabassist1

    fleabassist1 Rookie

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    You have to understand; this is not an American war; this is a George Bush war. When faced with the difficult question if I was going to join the army or not, I decided not to - because I am not serving my country, I am serving Bush.

    If I was alive during WW2, and Japan attacked our country - I would almost instantly volenteer. There is a massive difference between a war for you country and a war for your president.

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