Should the Pats bring Brandon Lloyd back?

[Triumph]

The production was fine. I don't make his production out to be any more, or less, than it was.

No, the production wasnt fine.

Gronk was out, Edelman was out and Branch was doing commercials for flexall 454. Where was Brandon? He is not the irreplaceable WR you make him out to be and thats why hes hitting the road.

Yes, and that doesn't excuse Breaston's inability to even see the field for most of this past season.

Ridiculous.

In some games the Chiefs would go 3 quarters before getting a 1st down.

 

[ausbacker]

There was no post of rage. However, you might have missed the post I was responding to, where mgteich began with

Stop presuming that people haven't read or paid attention to the thread Deus. Mg's position and yours are reasonable. To say one is garbage ahead of the other isn't right.

 

[JoeSixPat]

When was the last time the BB era Patriots brought in a free agent who had a more productive season than lloyd? How many such players have there been in the BB era?

Good point. Last time that happened was 2006.

If I remember correctly, Reche Caldwell was the top receiver on a 12-4 Patriots team.

If I remember correctly, the not only demoted him, but cut him - and their top WR's whopping $1 million salary - opting instead for not one but two strong deep threat wide receivers in his place

If I remember correctly, Caldwell not only failed to make the Patriots, but the top WR for the 2006 Patriots was unable to latch on with ANY team in the NFL, finally landing with the Redskins halfway through the season where he caught 15 passes

If you were trying to show that Belichick would cut his top wide receiver and bring in new deep threat WR free agents in his place, then well done!

 

[Deus Irae]

Stop presuming that people haven't read or paid attention to the thread Deus. Mg's position and yours are reasonable. To say one is garbage ahead of the other isn't right.

You obviously hadn't paid attention, given your comment about my approach which ignored the fact that it was a reply to a "post of rage" by mgteich.

 

[Deus Irae]

No, the production wasnt fine.

Gronk was out, Edelman was out and Branch was doing commercials for flexall 454. Where was Brandon? He is not the irreplaceable WR you make him out to be and thats why hes hitting the road.

I've never claimed he was irreplaceable. The issue brought up was replacing him for the same money, and nobody's been able to find a likely candidate. You do like to joust against strawmen.

Ridiculous.

In some games the Chiefs would go 3 quarters before getting a 1st down.

So, if Breaston was so good, why was he riding the pine?

Did anyone give you a clear reason you're not playing?

"I don't know. It was a lot of things ... they really didn't give me a clear cut answer.

http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2013/2/21/4012522/steve-breaston-interview-released-free-agent-chiefs-steelers-todd-haley

10 games
4 starts
7 receptions

On a team desperate for offense, that's what he produced. Now, with that team still desperate for offense, the new coaches have cut him loose. I wish him no ill will, but c'mon with trying to use him as the alternative.

 

[Deus Irae]

Good point. Last time that happened was 2006.

If I remember correctly, Reche Caldwell was the top receiver on a 12-4 Patriots team.

Caldwell didn't match Lloyd's production, amassing only 61 catches and 760 yards. Keep going.

As for the rest of your post, Caldwell was brought back to camp and given a chance to compete for a job, so it's not really the same.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Caldwell didn't match Lloyd's production, amassing only 61 catches and 760 yards. Keep going.

As for the rest of your post, Caldwell was brought back to camp and given a chance to compete for a job, so it's not really the same.

I'm not quite sure why you want to fixate on a 13 catch difference - but if you need to do so, you're probably grasping at straws.

Perhaps they are incomparable - Caldwell was the #1 WR on his team.

Like it or not Lloyd is far from that - perhaps Brady's 3rd or 4th option - yet you view any talk of prematurely cutting him and his $3 million roster bonus as crazy talk.

Like it or not the Patriots cut Caldwell - who cost only $1 million and had been Brady's favorite target the year before (when they were 12-4 and lost in the AFC Championship Game) - without Moss, Welker or Stallworth ever taking an actual game snap

So I can understand why you refuse to accept any comparison between the cutting Caldwell, a successful 2006 free agent, and the strong potential of cutting Lloyd, a successful 2012 free agent - because it basically undermines your entire argument.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm not quite sure why you want to fixate on a 13 catch difference - but if you need to do so, you're probably grasping at straws.

Perhaps they are incomparable - Caldwell was the #1 WR on his team.

I didn't fixate on anything. You were just wrong. It happens.

Like it or not Lloyd is far from that - perhaps Brady's 3rd or 4th option - yet you view any talk of prematurely cutting him and his $3 million roster bonus as crazy talk.

Where did I say that it was crazy to cut him? If they think that he was too much of a pain in the ass to have around, they should cut him tomorrow. My posts to mgteich began in response to this:

Why is Lloyd worth $5M of new money (and $3M next year). Is there no one else who MIGHT stretch the field better, have a higher YAC average and/or fit our needs better for $4M a year or for a bit more?

where I asked him to point out the better players in that price range. You're trying to conflate separate issues. One issue is his playing ability at the price. There's not currently anyone out there that one would expect to match that with. That's a separate issue from whether or not they want to deal with his personality.

Like it or not the Patriots cut Caldwell - who cost only $1 million and had been Brady's favorite target the year before (when they were 12-4 and lost in the AFC Championship Game) - without Moss, Welker or Stallworth ever taking an actual game snap

So I can understand why you refuse to accept any comparison between the cutting Caldwell, a successful 2006 free agent, and the strong potential of cutting Lloyd, a successful 2012 free agent - because it basically undermines your entire argument.

Again, Caldwell went through camp, so it's not the same thing at all, doesn't undercut any argument, and isn't relevant. I'm sorry that you're wrong again, but that's the way it is.

 

[ausbacker]

You obviously hadn't paid attention, given your comment about my approach which ignored the fact that it was a reply to a "post of rage" by mgteich.

I paid attention to your reply (post #21) to mg's comment in post #14. Quit being disingenuous. You said mg's plan without names was garbage. I'm telling you it's reasonable to have a plan without names and fill them in later.

 

[IllegalContact]

Should the Pats bring Lloyd back?

I assume you realize that Patten came in more than a decade ago, so you understand my point.



They've been trying since the day BB arrived.



Good comedy here, I'll give you that.



That's competely irrelevant to the point.



Have you not seen Breaston play his last 4 years?

I think he's got something left and will come for zero risk......the minimum wit no guarantees.....if he's done, dump him

He's not the only guy, but he'd be a decent prospect for some depth

Explain to me this great effort to sign FA WR's over the years

 

[Nunchucks]

I think he's got something left and will come for zero risk......the minimum wit no guarantees.....if he's done, dump him

He's not the only guy, but he'd be a decent prospect for some depth

Explain to me this great effort to sign FA WR's over the years

Really? You do not remember the line of tried and true veteran receivers that we have seen come into the Patriots?

We've seen a ton of guys come in and either not make the team or get on Brady's bad side.

 

[ralmat55]

I said maybe. It would depend on whether Welker resigns or not and whether they believe a deep threat is needed either through free agency or the draft. If he does and they believe they do, then, there really isn't any reason to keep Lloyd around. Welker, Gronk and Hernandez are going to play (when healthy) as well as the acquired deep threat, so $5 million is a little too much to pay a backup WR which is what Lloyd would be.

 

[Jimke]

Yet you can't name a single one that fits your own criteria and is currently available.....

Welker and moss were trades, so.....

When was the last time the BB era Patriots brought in a free agent who had a more productive season than lloyd? How many such players have there been in the BB era?

BB's recent free agents have included Joey Galloway, Tory Holt, and Chad Ochocinco. I'm not optomistic as to who he will sign this year.

His WR draftees are equally bad. The last time he struck it rich was 2002
when he landed Branch and Givens.

 

[Brady6]

2 years ago Lloyd was traded for a 1st rounder, now we cannot get a mid round pick for him rather than cutting him out right?

 

[kennyb]

He never seems to get any separation. I've been a little disappointed.

 

[PatriotDynasty_12]

I don't get it. He's a bargain for what he can produce. He may be "weird" but he is real solid. Keep him around, resign welker and draft a stud WR in the 1st round to go opposite of Lloyd on the outside and all the sudden our WR group is real nice. Also, Lloyd gives us depth at the position.

 

[Mix]

2 years ago Lloyd was traded for a 1st rounder, now we cannot get a mid round pick for him rather than cutting him out right?

The Rams traded a 5th for him, not a 1st.

 

[goheels22002]

I have read the stories and there are more issues than his personality.

Avoiding contact and not finding his niche in the offense fall under the production column. Evidently Lloyd isnt as productive as you make him out to be.

Furthermore, he dropped 43% of the passes that came by way of a HOF QB resulting in a 57% catch rate. Thats also a production issue. Brandon Gibson caught 62% of his passes with a greater yards per reception than Lloyd and more TDs. So, Gibson would be equal if not better than Lloyd, younger and less expensive.

He what? Lloyd "dropped?!?" 43% of the passes thrown his way? That's just terrible. Belichick must go if he's going to continue to play a guy who "dropped" 43% of the passes thrown his way.

Don't be ridiculous. Brandon Lloyd was credited with seven (7) drops in 2012. From ESPN's AFC East Blog before the Texans playoff game:

"The New England Patriots have very few weaknesses on offense. But one of the glaring issues all season has been drops.

According to ESPN Stats and Information, New England was tied for fourth in the NFL with 37 drops this season. The Patriots and Green Bay Packers are the only teams in the top 10 in drops that are still alive in the playoffs.

A high volume of drops usually is not the characteristic of an offense that led the NFL in scoring and total yards. However, the Patriots run a lot of plays and also leave some on the field.

The biggest culprit has been New England Pro Bowl receiver Wes Welker, who was second in the NFL with 11 drops. Wide eceiver Brandon Lloyd (seven drops) and tight ends Aaron Hernandez (six), and Rob Gronkowski (five) have added to the total."

Welker led the team with 11 drops according to this unofficial statistic. Lloyd's 73 catches for 900 yards was just fine in this offense. I'd bring him back and expect a bit more production since he has a year in the offense with these guys under his belt and a supportive OC.

The Patriots also have a better understanding of his mental health needs which can also be addressed. The behavioral stuff sounds like a treatable condition or maybe the result of concussions. Either way, he's not a distraction on or off the field like the secondary guys attracting all the headlines right now.

They still have the other WR position to fill, so they can keep Lloyd and bring in a complementary X receiver. My recommendation is to go big and physical outside and platoon Lloyd and a big WR who can block out on the edge to keep the CBs working on every play.

The thing that drives me nuts is this business about YAC and Lloyd falling down. He is doing what he ought to be doing. He is no good to the Patriots in January if he's beaten senseless by taking unnecessary hits to scratch out a few extra yards. Welker doesn't take unnecessary hits when he can get down.

They've got the RBs, Gronkowski and Hernandez to catch the underneath stuff and then pound away at the safeties and the linebackers. Those are your bruisers. It was unfortunate that both got injured on non-hits by the opposing defense (Gronk blocking on an extra point and Hernandez rolled up on by Edelman.)

It's like hockey, you don't want a guy like Marchand setting up in the crease taking shots from everybody that passes by. He's a real scrapper, but he knows that that he has to protect himself to make it through the season and the playoffs. Same with Lloyd.

Goodness, he gave the Pats 12 catches for a 102 yards in the playoffs when they needed him in addition to his 73/904 during the regular season.

 

[JoeSixPat]

He what? Lloyd "dropped?!?" 43% of the passes thrown his way? That's just terrible. Belichick must go if he's going to continue to play a guy who "dropped" 43% of the passes thrown his way.

Don't be ridiculous. Brandon Lloyd was credited with seven (7) drops in 2012. From ESPN's AFC East Blog before the Texans playoff game:

"The New England Patriots have very few weaknesses on offense. But one of the glaring issues all season has been drops.

According to ESPN Stats and Information, New England was tied for fourth in the NFL with 37 drops this season. The Patriots and Green Bay Packers are the only teams in the top 10 in drops that are still alive in the playoffs.

A high volume of drops usually is not the characteristic of an offense that led the NFL in scoring and total yards. However, the Patriots run a lot of plays and also leave some on the field.

The biggest culprit has been New England Pro Bowl receiver Wes Welker, who was second in the NFL with 11 drops. Wide eceiver Brandon Lloyd (seven drops) and tight ends Aaron Hernandez (six), and Rob Gronkowski (five) have added to the total."

Welker led the team with 11 drops according to this unofficial statistic. Lloyd's 73 catches for 900 yards was just fine in this offense. I'd bring him back and expect a bit more production since he has a year in the offense with these guys under his belt and a supportive OC.

The Patriots also have a better understanding of his mental health needs which can also be addressed. The behavioral stuff sounds like a treatable condition or maybe the result of concussions. Either way, he's not a distraction on or off the field like the secondary guys attracting all the headlines right now.

They still have the other WR position to fill, so they can keep Lloyd and bring in a complementary X receiver. My recommendation is to go big and physical outside and platoon Lloyd and a big WR who can block out on the edge to keep the CBs working on every play.

The thing that drives me nuts is this business about YAC and Lloyd falling down. He is doing what he ought to be doing. He is no good to the Patriots in January if he's beaten senseless by taking unnecessary hits to scratch out a few extra yards. Welker doesn't take unnecessary hits when he can get down.

They've got the RBs, Gronkowski and Hernandez to catch the underneath stuff and then pound away at the safeties and the linebackers. Those are your bruisers. It was unfortunate that both got injured on non-hits by the opposing defense (Gronk blocking on an extra point and Hernandez rolled up on by Edelman.)

It's like hockey, you don't want a guy like Marchand setting up in the crease taking shots from everybody that passes by. He's a real scrapper, but he knows that that he has to protect himself to make it through the season and the playoffs. Same with Lloyd.

Goodness, he gave the Pats 12 catches for a 102 yards in the playoffs when they needed him in addition to his 73/904 during the regular season.

Given the number of times Welker is targeted by Brady, I'd be shocked if he DIDN'T lead the team in drops.

That being said, some of Welker's drops have been pretty big ones as of late - not all were perfectly thrown, and 9 times out of 10 Welker makes the un-makeable catches - but those drops might have been the difference in two more Super Bowls.

Maybe that gets us a hometown discount as I want Welker back - and I'd love to see improvement at the #1 deep WR. They cut their $1 million #1 WR in 2007 to bring in better deep threats - its completely plausible they'd cut Lloyd and his $3 million and package that with some Brady cap savings to give the team enough tools to return to dominance.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

For what it's worth, here's Reiss's take on it from this week's chat:

Dave, the idea of Lloyd not having his option bonus picked up isn't new. This was discussed when the season ended. I think what's unfortunate is that the picture being painted is that Lloyd's bonus might not be picked up because of behind-the-scenes/locker room issues. I look at the situation differently. I think it's more economics relative to production. If Lloyd was set to make the veteran minimum for a salary, I don't think we're having this discussion. Lloyd is wired a bit differently, but I don't think it's anything we haven't seen in that locker room in past years. It's about football to me, not personality.