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Should our current economic system change?

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Turd Furguson, Oct 12, 2007.

  1. Turd Furguson

    Turd Furguson Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    Would you prefer the U.S become a Socialist or Communist economy? Or do you believe that Capitalism is key in the American dream?
     
  2. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    We're more or less in the European model, with programs like Social Security, Aid to Dependent Children, Medicare/Medicaid. Basically, we should continue to tweak the system so that it helps the truly needy and develops our economy. In that sense, I favor social democratic economies, like those of France, Sweden, Norway, etc. But, one area I do think we need to be more capitalistic on is taxes. Tax rates should be driven by supply and demand. We should raise taxes on the wealthy when we need more money, and cut those taxes at the point where it begins to harm our economy. I don't like communistic flat rates, where everyone pays the same percent. I prefer more capitalistic taxes, driven and shaped by the dynamics of the economy.
     
  3. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    The freer the market, the more opportunity there is for everyone. If you want everyone to be a number, and earn similarly, then the other two are right for you. No thanks.
     
  4. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Higher taxation on the wealthy slows growth. Higher taxation of any kind slows growth.
     
  5. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Prove it! (Where did you get that from, some partisan playbook, or share with us the economic reports that you read, since you claim to know so much.)

    There are too many variables in economic growth to attribute that growth to tax cuts. In fact, there's evidence that high taxes spurred economic growth in the past:

    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-taxgrowth.htm

    "There is no historical evidence that tax cuts spur economic growth. The highest period of growth in U.S. history (1933-1973) also saw its highest tax rates on the rich: 70 to 91 percent."
     
  6. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Um, look inside that period you mention and tell me when we experienced the highest level of growth? Hmmm...When you do that, consider what years that growth was experienced, and what Kennedy did during his term to accomplish those gains. :p He slashed taxes, especially the marginal rate for the highest earners. This was on Kudlow the other night. He slashed them from 90% to 71%. What was the result of his tax cuts? Yup! Economic growth, increased revenue for the government, and a decrease in the deficit. :rocker:

    BTW, what did Reagan do? The Economic Recovery Tax Act of 1981. How'd that work out for ya?
     
  7. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I wonder if that number seems to high for Patters . . .

    :bricks:
     
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah, but Roosevelt and Eisenhower raised taxes, and we had economic growth as well.
     
  9. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, but....

    When did we have the highest rise in economic growth? When did we have the greatest results? It's been when rates were cut.
     
  10. PressCoverage

    PressCoverage Banned

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    is anyone surprised with the case study that is original post here?

    because if we've learned anything about Conservative thought, it's either black or white... no in between... if it's not gung-ho soulless capitalism in every aspect, it must be evil communism without a doubt...
     
  11. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Do you have a link to support that? Also, what about the effects of massive deficit spending. Let's face it, both Reagan and Bush pumped billions into our economy that we do not have. Don't you think that affects economic growth, with a price to pay in the future? All I'm saying is that tax rates are merely one factor in determining economic growth. High taxes or low, you can still have growth and prosperity.
     
  12. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Um, yes I do have a link but it's on my internet explorer at work. Also, this wasn't about spending, it's about taxation and it's effect on the economy. If you want to argue spending, fine by me. When was the last time we had a reduction in government? Government simply grows, and grows, and grows....
     
  13. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You can't talk about taxation in a vacuum. Clearly there are times when cutting taxes is good and times when raising them are good, but you have to factor in all sorts of other things. The correlation between tax rates and growth is not as simple as you seem to believe. Only political propaganda (on both sides) poses the issue like that.
     
  14. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Raising taxes is NEVER good. Please tell me when raising taxes makes sense. And don't ask me a question as your answer. :p
     
  15. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    To fight WWII, to fund Medicaid/Medicare, to fund Social Security, to pay debt, etc. There are many cases where raising taxes is good, though you can debate where (state, fed, city) and how (income, capital gains, sales) taxes should be raised.
     
  16. Stokes

    Stokes In the Starting Line-Up

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    Patters, I agree with you about continuing social programs, but I think what you say here would create a dangerous precedent. The idea of just raising taxes on the wealthy every time the country needs money is a bad idea to me. The issue that first needs to be addressed is wasteful government spending. Why continue to pour more money into a system that is operating so inefficiently? If the government is not making good use of tax dollars, the last thing we should be thinking about is giving them more money to play with! It is something that is almost never addressed when people talk about tax increases (and I mean that generally, not directed at you in particular). It always sounds great to increase taxes on cigs or booze or other things that I enjoy to fund healthcare for poor children, but if the system isn't operating efficiently it ends up being a waste, they don't get out of it what they should based on what is put in.
     
  17. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    We're talking economically. I knew you'd reach for some world altering struggle, or a disaster of some sort.

    Raising taxes for SS is a joke. They've bled SS dry for too long. It's another example of a government program being pilfered by the mentally ill, and simply passing the bill onto those, baaaaaa, sheep who bend over and pay.

    So, again, outside of the failures of government, and a world war of some kind, please tell me when it makes economic sense to increase taxes?
     
  18. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

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    Stokes, don't you understand buddy, we need to Save the Children! :D

    What boggles the mind is how irresponsible, illogical, and idiotic some sheep can be with respect to the government. When you get 30 or 40 cents on the dollar, why keep paying, or why even pay more? With a $2.7 Trillion budget, can someone honestly tell me the government doesn't take enough?
     
  19. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Christ, Patters, you are daring to bring up Social Security; the single biggest fraud in the country ? Just let me keep the money and invest it for myself.
     
  20. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree completely that we have to address government waste, and frankly in the '80s that was one thing the Republicans did well. That said, one person's idea of waste is another person's idea of necessity.

    A Congressperson who fights for $10 million to aid an industry in their district is often doing the right thing, but some automatically call it pork barrel. To manage the economy, farmers sometime are paid not to grow crops because otherwise prices would fall too much, putting farmers out of business. These issues are far more complex and have to do with the longterm development and viability of certain industries in certain areas during certain times.

    That said, where we can identify waste and inefficiency, let's address it. But, that issue should be separate from things that are fundamental rights, like health care. My point about taxes is that they should be dynamic and change according to the prevailing economic conditions. For instance, right now is a good time to raise taxes on the wealth and cut them for the middle class.
     

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