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Should NFL remove players from HOF?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by JR4, May 8, 2010.

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  1. JR4

    JR4 In the Starting Line-up PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The NFL is suppose to representative of the best the NFL has had.
    When a player commits a crime or brings great disgrace to their name
    and that player in Canton HOF should the NFL have the right to remove
    such players?

    I know this is a debate else way so I wanted to see what you all think.
    LT is just latest but there are others.
  2. Gwedd

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    No. The HOF is supposed to represent the player's accomplishments on the field. If he's good enough to be selected, he's good enough to remain there.

    What he does afterward should have no bearing on his status once he's elected.

    Respects,
  3. JR4

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    So you don't mind that a player gets honored and seen by thousands of
    visitors a year even though he is a rapist. Suppose a mass killer?
    So a young boy visits the HOF and see player "XYZ" and wants to be like
    him. Some time later he finds out his idol is a mass killer or a rapist.
    That doesn't bother you?
  4. Gwedd

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    Should "Time" magazine purge it's files of the issue where it named Hitler as "Man of the Year"?

    Heck, half the HoF statues would be removed if we judged them by their actions afterward. Where do you draw the line? Getting a DUI? Arrested for assault? Burglary? Spouse Abusive? Illegal Gambling?

    What if it was discovered that he had taken illegal drugs when he was a player, or steroids? Half the Steelers in the HoF would be tossed out, along with a LOT of players from the 70's and 80's.

    The HoF honors the player because of his accomplishments ON the field. If he messes up afterward, he'll likely have enough personal shunning by others to offset his status.
  5. JR4

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    I see your point and the line would be hard to draw. But there are some
    crimes that are just so bad that to honor such a person seems not right.
    Raping a 15 year old or a mass killing or murder incident for example.
    Such a player certainly deserves to be removed and not honored.

    Even when a player has retired, his character and what he does often
    reflects back to the NFL. Certainly true of NFL HOFers.
    Last edited: May 8, 2010
  6. Snake Eyes

    Snake Eyes Rookie

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    I grew up watching LT when I lived in NY and I worshipped him, when I read that he was arrested for rape it was like being punched in the stomach but even knowing what an utter disappointment he is as a person I still wouldnt want to have grown up without watching him.

    Being a great player doesn't mean one is a good person. I don't know what you think you'd be accomplishing by trying to shield kids from that fact, I'd rather them learn that lesson as soon as possible.
  7. JMarr

    JMarr Rookie

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    Disagree. It should be about what the player accomplished while on the playing field, or representing the NFL in a significant capacity post-career, ala Pete Rose. What you're arguing for smacks of censorship. If anything, it's good for people to see guys like LT in the Hall of Fame--shows a) that anyone, now matter how much of a sports icon, can fall into the abyss post-career, and b) in LT's case, how someone who had known problems during his career wasn't able to ever exorcise his demons.
  8. JR4

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    It is sort of amazing to me that because a person is a great NFL player
    some think their personal responsibility of being a good citizen of the
    world doesn't matter.
    Let me ask you one question. Suppose player XYZ was nominated to be
    in the HOF as one of the greatest QBs ever and that player since retiring
    went berserk and killed his wife and two children for what ever reason.
    Do you think the committee would vote him into the NFL hall of fame?
  9. spacecrime

    spacecrime Rookie

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    If it is a personal responsibility, it is personal and none of our business.

    Players are voted into the Hall of Fame by sports writers. It is risky enough to have them judge a players worth as an athlete.

    You are saying they should also judge the players on their morals.

    That is bad enough, but the possiblities for abuse are tremendous. Even if things could be done impartially and not on media hype and sensationalism it would never work have "being a good citizen of the world" more important than football prowess. Mother Teresa would be in the NFL HoF.

    But we all know that media sensationalism and hysteria would drive changes, just as sensationalism and hysteria are driving the creation of this thread.

    And, yes, LT is driving this thread. These threads ONLY appear when the media and fanatics are going beserk over the current scandal.

    Let's let the best football players in the world be Hall of Famers, and the best people in the world be saints. Mother Teresa may have been a good citizen of the world, but she shied away from tackles. Let's keep her out of the HoF and LT in.
  10. Deus Irae

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    To me, Halls of Fame are about the person as a player. The off-the-field and post-career stuff is irrelevant, unless it's something that impacts game performance (PEDs, for example).
  11. JR4

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    Nice long response but you didn't answer my question.


    Suppose player XYZ was nominated to be
    in the HOF as one of the greatest QBs ever and that player since retiring
    went berserk and killed his wife and two children for what ever reason.
    Do you think the committee would vote him into the NFL hall of fame?

    Do not assume there is any directive by the NFL to consider off the field
    issues. Just a Yes or No would be fine.
  12. KontradictioN

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    This is basically what I wanted to say.
  13. Snake Eyes

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    Why do you give a crap what the HoF committee thinks? They're a bunch of writers who have never played the game at the pro level, give me a committee made up of former players and coaches and I'll take what they think a lot more seriously.

    And yes, I would vote that QB to the HoF.
  14. ALP

    ALP Rookie

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    as everyone else has said, HOF represents good football players

    its a shame these guys are not as good people as they were players, but what can one do?

    honor him for his football accomplishments, just like OJ, and he killed someone

    btw, at least to me, being in the HOF, means nothing when ur a killer or rapist, so its an empty "honor" as u call it
  15. MassPats38

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    I suspect many superstars are not the sort of person that the average person would want to spend time with given the effects of celebrity status and requirements to be successful in the game. Take away the game, and all that is left is that character.

    HOF status is for those who define the sport on the field, not off the field. It is a hard enough question to debate whether character matters to any great extent in making it to the HOF. There is no good character club, or records for being a solid citizen. You enter for the accomplishments while in the NFL, and no pictures or entries are added for what you later do, good or bad, after you are enshrined. If you can strip status for bad deeds, then how about adding guys like Byron White, who are credited with high accomplishments after their careers end? And how bad is a bad deed that would cause you to lose HOF status? Any post-enshrinement assessments are just too arbitrary.
  16. JR4

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    If character doesn't matter once you get into the HOF then why not apply
    the same logic to the active players of the NFL.
    Once you make a NFL roster character doesn't matter. But we do
    know it matters. If a player is bad enough he can get suspended
    indefinitely.

    Character matters going into the HOF, why shouldn't it matter once one
    is there? NFL heroes should be someone you can point a young man at
    and say ... see what he did ... you can be like him. I know it is not
    often possible but in extreme cases the NFL should step up and say
    this is not what we represent or condone and do something about it.
  17. JMarr

    JMarr Rookie

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    Case by case basis, but in this case, the committee almost definitely would not. Me personally? Again I would not draw a bright line rule at all and might still vote yes depending on all the circumstances.

    Regardless, once he's been inducted, you don't 'de-induct' him and try to erase him from the memory books. That's like revisionist history,
  18. patsfan-1982

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    no thats why i hate the baseball hall of fame cause they keeps guys like pete rose out the HOF is about what you did on the field not off of it.


    and as fas as our kids wanting to be like rapist and killers in the HOF i mean come on it's our job to raise our kids right not some football player that gets paid millions
  19. DaBruinz

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    #50 Jersey

    The only time I have heard of someone being removed from a Hall of Fame is Alan Eagleson being removed from the Hockey Hall of Fame for numerous crimes committed as an agent and as the president of the NFLPA.

    The only other person I know of who has run afoul of a Hall of Fame is Pete Rose. Who was banned for betting on his own games while managing the Reds.. And he received a lifetime ban because it was directly related to the game.

    There are players whom I believe shouldn't have been elected because of what they did during their career.. That list includes Michael Irvin and Ray Lewis. But that's just me.
  20. mmasterkillah

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    If you take guys out because of off-field issues, than you ought to think about adding guys because they are good samaritans. Sound ridiculous? You betcha.
  21. Satchboogie3

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    People just need to learn that Athletes are regular people too. Some are good, some are bad, most are somewhere in between. Humans have a habit of putting people up on pedestals and worshiping them, just because they are great athletes doesn't mean they should be worshiped.

    If I was an aspiring young athlete, I'd make sure to separate the sport from personal life. If their was a player who was amazing and I wanted to learn from/mimic, I'd do so, but it would only be what they do on the field, I wouldn't be worshiping them or anything. The guy might be totally despicable, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything to learn from him.

    Also, we simply can't know the intentions of everyone. Everybody has skeletons in their closets, some a lot worse than others. We just have to remember people are human and someone who seems perfect could have a dark side or just end up down the wrong path later in life. Shows like "American Idol" certainly don't help to eliminate this problem.

    Manny Ramirez is such a character for me. There have been rumors of him having locker-room and anger problems, etc etc. Do I care? No. I don't know him and I don't know what his personality is actually like. I watch him because he's an amazing hitter and I love his "antics" on the field. Short of being a convict, I don't care what he does off the field.

    As for the HOF, I don't think it's intentions are just to "idolize" the top athletes as much as it is a record of the best players in the history of the sport. There will be some that were terrible human beings, but that doesn't erase what they did on the field. Hitler was evil, but that doesn't mean we should just erase his name and the Holocaust from history, I see no reason why we should do so in sports either.
    Last edited: May 8, 2010
  22. JR4

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    Pete Rose does not deserve to be honored along with the
    players who played the game with courage and character
    regardless of his stats.

    Let Pete Rose be in the stat books but not in the HOF.
    Taking the consequences of ones actions is what this is about.
    This is something this country has forgotten to teach it's young.

    If LT had any character and if he did what people say he did, he should
    step up and request to be removed from the HOF saying ...
    "for what I did I should not be among those honorable men."
  23. Joker

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    Rose IS paying for his past transgressions...and paying dearly.

    If Ty Cobb is in the Hall of Fame, so too should Pete Rose. His faults as a human being should play no part in what he did on the diamond. You start down this road and pretty soon you got about 200 or 300 members of the hall that should be removed.
  24. Fixit

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    I wish that every manager and player on every team that I root for bet on their own team to win.

    Oh, and to answer the original question, hell, no. The HOF is only about how well you played the game. They don't take back Olympic medals if you're an a-hole, only if they found out you cheated, in which case I'm fine with HOF removal. But sportswriters voting on morality? Give unto me a break.
    Last edited: May 8, 2010
  25. Boston Boxer

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    LT has never been an upstanding person off the field ever, so i would think no. When i heard the report on LT the other day my reaction was "meh, i could see that". The guy is a substance abuser and just a bad human being that has some problem he needs help for. On the field he was awesome.
  26. eagle eye

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    What a silly thread.

    The Hall of Fame is about honoring those who were brillaint footballers. Its got nothing to do with anything else and to even suggest that somebody should be removed for things that were not related to their on the field activities is ludicrous.

    This for me is the same thing as suggesting that an average footballer who has great achievements that have nothing to do with football should be in the hall.

    As far as suggesting that if somebody is in the hall with a criminal record they should be removed, I say its a good lesson for those that come after to learn that being a pro-footballer doesn't mean you don't have to work at other parts of your life.
    Last edited: May 8, 2010
  27. MassPats38

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    That's apples and oranges. A player can be a huge jerk, even a criminal jerk, and remain on a team. It is only when his conduct rises to the level that a team or the Commissioner suspends him that character is an issue. If a player is not on the field, then he will not accrue statistics and never will be a Hall candidate. That player is also a liability as he represents a high cost with minimal return given games played, so his absence is likely what will compel his release, not his lack of character. Highly talented players can absorb huge character hits and still play the game at an elite level. Teams tire quickly of players with character issues who are not considered elite. If the elite player is on the field and performing, character is not an issue. How many character issues did Larry Johnson, Romanowski and the Championship Cowboys teams have before anything happened to those guys when playing at elite levels? You are kidding yourself if you believe character trumps skill in the NFL. Teams want to win. This is not Pee Wee football and a demonstration of sportsmanship.

    And character matters in HOF selection? It is the last line on the resume. Name me one player who got in on character rather than numbers and results/championships. I cannot think of one. Staubach likely had character, but that was incidental to his election as he had statistics, winning seasons, big games and a Super Bowl MVP. Would Michael Irvin be a character guy in your opinion? And Lawrence Taylor was acknowledged to be a raging coke addict while playing, but that was offset by a talent that made him likely the greatest defensive player ever. The difference between then and now is not that players are worse, but rather that the 24/7 media does not leave stone unturned. Ty Cobb was not a great character guy, nor was Babe Ruth. Their stories are not unique among the hall members of all sports. Stop watching "When It Was a Game" and start reading some of their biographies. Not exactly heroic stuff that you want your kids to mimic.
    Last edited: May 8, 2010
  28. Crazy Patriot Guy

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    I understand what you're saying after reading through this thread. However, I don't like the idea of kicking players out of the HOF for post-career problems.

    I don't think anyone is trying to say that football players can do whatever they want after they retire as long as they were good when they played. I think most just feel that on-field performance is what counts in getting enshrined. (as long as they didn't cheat)

    I certainly don't like hearing that LT did this. If he's found guilty, he should go to prison. It doesn't change the fact though that he was the greatest LB of all-time. That's what he's in the HOF for.

    As it is, what does kicking him out really do? What message does it send? Do you think any player would then think twice about commiting a crime for fear of being booted out of the hall, as if prison should be an afterthought? Fans will still think LT's the best ever. Fans will still consider him a HOFer. Taking the jacket back doesn't really change much.
  29. Fencer

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    No.

    His recent actions may be a good reason to exclude him from HOF-related activities.

    But his accomplishments as a player are what they were.

    I wouldn't even kick OJ Simpson out of the HOF, although I might put up an extra plaque about his post-football difficulties.
  30. Dynasty

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    They knew "LT" history when he was inducted. Sadly the voters don't seem to care about a players off the field problems. IF convicted he should be removed from the HOF. Those are guys kids look up to.
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