Shefter on Cassel as a QB [merged]

[mayoclinic]

NFL Video Galleries

Right around 50 seconds in...

Really good stuff.

 

[Deus Irae]

yup .bill walsh installed the west coast system when he got montana .montana is also a system qb. he played in the west coast system only.as did steve young.
not comparing casel to any of thse but i never get this system qb argument.Not everyone plays like brett favre -throw high and deep and pray.

Sadly, in recent months, JCDavey has seemingly in decided that he'd rather troll than have real discussions.

 

[billdog3484]

yup .bill walsh installed the west coast system when he got montana .montana is also a system qb. he played in the west coast system only.as did steve young.
not comparing casel to any of thse but i never get this system qb argument.Not everyone plays like brett favre -throw high and deep and pray.

yah...too bad jim drunkenmiller didnt fit in

 

[JSn]

NFL Video Galleries

Right around 50 seconds in...

The gaytarded thing in this clip is the idea that he has 15 games and 10 wins. Talk about milking a technicality.

 

[BradyBranch39]

I'm going with 10 or 11 for the # of QBs better than Cassel.

 

[mayoclinic]

I'm going with 10 or 11 for the # of QBs better than Cassel.

Better right now? Or as long-term QB options to build around?

 

[JSn]

I'm going with 10 or 11 for the # of QBs better than Cassel.

Sure, and then adjust that list for "best available QB"...

 

[patriots pam]

The gaytarded thing in this clip is the idea that he has 15 games and 10 wins. Talk about milking a technicality.

Aha! So I wasn't the only one who noticed.

But still a refreshing change to watch NFLN instead of BSPN when I can, as my cable company doesn't offer NFLN.

 

[BradyBranch39]

Brady
Manning
Palmer
Brees
Ben
Ryan
Schaub
Cutler
Rivers (though I think he's overrated)
McNabb

Maybe in the future: Flacco, Leinart (yea, i said it)

 

[AzPatsFan]

If Matt Cassel going forward is the Matt Cassel who played the second half of last season, of course he is top 8 in the league. He might be on that second tier below Brady and Manning and possibly a few others.

This is why I think the Pats will get good trade compensation for Cassel. He is potentially a franchise QB that a team can build a championship around. In this league, those are few and far between. I think someone will bet the farm (if they haven't already and we will find out in the next few hours or days) to get him. He is a safer bet than the second best QB in the draft in Mark Sanchez.

Please get it through your head that there are ZERO first day QBs in the 2009 draft. Stafford has no accuracy. Sanchez would be a 4th - 6th rounder in a normal year. No matter how hard they try to promote them the talent is just not there.

 

[mayoclinic]

Brady
Manning
Palmer
Brees
Ben
Ryan
Schaub
Cutler
Rivers (though I think he's overrated)
McNabb

Maybe in the future: Flacco, Leinart (yea, i said it)

I'm OK with Brady, Manning, Roethlisberger, Brees, and Rivers (though I also think he's overrated).

I would agree with Palmer pre-injury, but he's a question mark right now.

Schaub played well, but he has only played in 11 games each of his 2 seasons as a starter. I would not put him ahead of Cassel.

While Jay Cutler put up a lot more yards (over 4500) than Cassel, he also had 18 interceptions, a lower QB rating, and a worse completion percentage. Plus he has never had a playoff-calibre season as a starter (Denver has finished 8-8 and 7-9 the past 2 years, ending up with the 12th pick both years).

If you treat Ryan and Cassel as first year starters, then Cassel clearly had a better year: more yards (3693 to 3440), better rating (89.4 to 87.7), more TDs (21 to 16), better TD/int ratio (21:11 to 16:11), better completion % (63.4 to 61.1), with an identical record. You're just projecting a belief that Ryan will be better in the long term, which isn't at all clear.

As for McNabb he's 32 years old and has been extremely erratic. The Pats value consistency, and McNabb as alternated great games with stinking up the joint. There's been constant talk about whether Philly would stick with him the past few seasons.

So I don't think it's entirely clear. As for your other suggestions, I don't think they're worth a response.

 

[Rob0729]

Please get it through your head that there are ZERO first day QBs in the 2009 draft. Stafford has no accuracy. Sanchez would be a 4th - 6th rounder in a normal year. No matter how hard they try to promote them the talent is just not there.

I only mentioned Sanchez because Cassel has started more games in the NFL than Sanchez has started games in college. At least Stafford has a college resume beyond last season. I do agree that neither are really worthy of first round picks though.

 

[upstater1]

speaks to the system belichik has installed in NE

if cassell would have had a full camp last year as the #1 , going into the season, the pats would have finished alot better than 11-5, and probably would have won the superbowl

if brady doesn't get hurt they'd have finished alot better than 11-5 and probably would have won the superbowl

Yep, and Belichick installed that system back in 2000. That was the year Drew Bledsoe had a full camp as the #1, the Patriots finished better than 11-5, and won the Super Bowl.

 

[RobertWeathers]

speaks to the system belichik has installed in NE

if cassell would have had a full camp last year as the #1 , going into the season, the pats would have finished alot better than 11-5, and probably would have won the superbowl

if brady doesn't get hurt they'd have finished alot better than 11-5 and probably would have won the superbowl

Disagree. The 3rd down and red zone D was crappy. Plus Pitt was a better team.

 

[unoriginal]

And we almost went 40 posts without giving jcdavey attention...

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Shefter on Cassel as a QB

That puts him equal to Brady, Manning, Rothliesberger, etc etc

What you anti-Casselites refuse to admit is that given playing time he has shown what very few NFL QBs ever develop: Pocket presence and ability to read defenses, to check down, and to make accurate throws under pressure.

It isn't a win-loss thing. Archie Manning was a great QB despite never elevating the Saints. Trent Dilfer was never a great QB in spite of winning the superbowl.

I disagree with a lot of your post.
First, Brady elevated a franchise that Pro Football Weekly called the farthest from the SB of all NFL teams, and one that had gone 5-13 in its last 18 games to 14-3 and a SB Title.
Secondly, I disagree a lot with the 'its not about winning and losing'. What do these QBs have in common?
Terry Bradshaw
Troy Aikman
Joe Montana
John Elway
Tom Brady











I'm sure your first answer is that they are the biggest winners in NFL History.

The other answer is that every one of them took over a pathetic team. Bradshaw and Aikman were the first pick in the draft by 1 win worst in the NFL teams. Montana took over a team off back to back 2-14s, Brady, as above took over a team perceived among the worst, Elways went to the 2-7 (strike year) Broncos.

In other words, GREAT QBS make the teams great not the other way around.
To say that Archie Manning was a great QB when he never had a winning season because you want to blame it on the people around him ignores the fact that Bradshaw went in the same draft to a team that was just as bad, or that Montana was 'stuck' on a team that was 4-24 before him.

 

[Synovia]

I'm sorry, but I just don't get this. I defended Cassel when most people wanted him beheaded or staked out for the ants, but people have just gone way overboard. The Patriots had 2 wins against playoff teams: a Miami team that really had no business making the playoffs and a Cardinals team that didn't bother to show up for the game. Cassel feasted on the worst teams in the league. This doesn't make him a bad player or a good player, but for people to act as if he's clearly in some upper quarterback echelon is just insane.

Almost exactly the same could be said about Phillip Rivers. THat doesn't change the fact that Rivers is elite.

 

[Synovia]

Re: Shefter on Cassel as a QB

In other words, GREAT QBS make the teams great not the other way around. .

Or you could say that Great teams make their QBs look great.


I'm not even sure Aikman or Bradshaw were good, let alone great. They were surrounded by oodles of talent.

 

[Deus Irae]

Almost exactly the same could be said about Phillip Rivers. THat doesn't change the fact that Rivers is elite.

Rivers has multiple years on his resume. Cassel...... doesn't.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Re: Shefter on Cassel as a QB

Sounds like an overrating, but try naming 10 better.
Here, IMO, are the guys, by division, who are in the argument, those not listed are clear-cut not as good as Cassell.


Note this list is not who is better but who may be considered in the argument.
AFCE
Brady
Pennington
AFCN
Roeth.
Palmer (but i would imagine is out of discussion until healthy)
AFCS
Manning
Schaub(no way on my list, but someone may argue him)
AFCW
Cutler
Rivers
NFCE
Manning
McNab (personally I think McNab is most overrated QB in the league and doesnt belong on the list, but most fans would include him)
Romo
NFCN
NFCS
Ryan
Brees
NFCW
Warner
Hasselbeck (if ever healthy again)

Thats a total of only 15 that you could even make an argument for.
In other words, no matter whether you overrate or underate Cassel he is better than more starting NFL QBs than he is not better than.

IMO it's pretty easy to make a case that Cassel is better than Pennington, Hasselbeck, Schaub and McNabb, He's probably better than Romo, Cutler and Palmer (right now) too. So who are the other 7 in the top 8?

Brady
Manning
Roethlisberger
Rivers
Warner
Brees
Cassel
Ryan?

I think that sounds pretty fair.