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Seymour Trade Makes Belichick Accountable


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Maybe that is why he turned it over...:ugh:QUOTE]

As the Fonz would say exactomundo! I think the D may struggle at first but we are younger and faster and by the end of the season we will be gellin like a felon.
 
The Patriots defense has been weak for the past 4 years. I don't think anyone will troll you for saying in now.

The Pats defense hasn't been "weak" for the Past 4 years.. You don't rate in the top 10 in points scored in 3 of the last 4 years by having a weak defense.
 
I think the source of some fans concern about the defense lies in the apparent change of scheme. Until we watch at least a handful of games, we have no idea what this defense is. We're used to seeing set defensive schemes with the same clear cut starters each week.

No matter which way I look at this defense on paper, 3-4, 4-3, nickel, whatever, I have no idea which 11 players I'm going to see. Each unit on the defense has 1-2 every down players and a bunch of matchup-based moving parts. It makes a fan anxious to see so much change in so little time and to not be able to predict the outcome.

In dealing Seymour, Belichick has moved a defensive playmaker and a proven quantity under the notion that the Patriots defense will be better in a new scheme without him than in the old scheme, with him. It's a bold move, and one that fans are expecting to pay dividends now, not just in 2011.
 
Exactly. However, unlike DL and LB groups, the DB personnel remained static throughout the preseason. Is this a reflection of organizational faith in the DBs or a lack of decent replacement talent?

Do you think BB has consciously decided that elite CBs are not as valuable as the league may collectively believe?

Also, can anyone give a quick technical analysis of why Chung got burned multiple times against the Giants?

In preseason, most DB's were left on an island to study what they could and couldn't do (e.g., Wheatley). I personally think this is great- to expose their flaws at a time where games don't count.

I don't understand why people bash this- you WANT them to make mistakes in the preseason so they adjust for regular season.
 
Exactly. However, unlike DL and LB groups, the DB personnel remained static throughout the preseason. Is this a reflection of organizational faith in the DBs or a lack of decent replacement talent?

Do you think BB has consciously decided that elite CBs are not as valuable as the league may collectively believe?

Also, can anyone give a quick technical analysis of why Chung got burned multiple times against the Giants?

Chung didn't get "burned" so much on the 1st play as he did get illegally picked and the Refs blew it.

On the 2nd one, he just played the coverage wrong. The way he was lined up made it easy for the WR out of the slot to break outside and be wide open..

The biggest knock on Chung coming out of college was that his pass coverage was the weakest part of his game. It's something that the Pats decided to drive home to him in the last pre-season. That he needs to work on that more than anything..
 
Chung didn't get "burned" so much on the 1st play as he did get illegally picked and the Refs blew it.

On the 2nd one, he just played the coverage wrong. The way he was lined up made it easy for the WR out of the slot to break outside and be wide open..

The biggest knock on Chung coming out of college was that his pass coverage was the weakest part of his game. It's something that the Pats decided to drive home to him in the last pre-season. That he needs to work on that more than anything..

Agreed..

Also on the first play, Slater failed to roll over- he should have recognized the pick play and anticipated. From what I saw, he had zone coverage responsibility.
 
I think the source of some fans concern about the defense lies in the apparent change of scheme. Until we watch at least a handful of games, we have no idea what this defense is. We're used to seeing set defensive schemes with the same clear cut starters each week.

No matter which way I look at this defense on paper, 3-4, 4-3, nickel, whatever, I have no idea which 11 players I'm going to see. Each unit on the defense has 1-2 every down players and a bunch of matchup-based moving parts. It makes a fan anxious to see so much change in so little time and to not be able to predict the outcome.

In dealing Seymour, Belichick has moved a defensive playmaker and a proven quantity under the notion that the Patriots defense will be better in a new scheme without him than in the old scheme, with him. It's a bold move, and one that fans are expecting to pay dividends now, not just in 2011.

Yes. I guess we will just wait and see how they do.
 
In preseason, most DB's were left on an island to study what they could and couldn't do (e.g., Wheatley). I personally think this is great- to expose their flaws at a time where games don't count.

I don't understand why people bash this- you WANT them to make mistakes in the preseason so they adjust for regular season.

BINGO!

The big problem that a lot of fans, and the sportscasters and talking heads have, is that they have one set of expectations for the pre-season, while Coach and the staff has an entirely different one.

Fans want to see their favorite players, and get a win, see all sorts of kewl things.

The coaches want to see what the players can actually do, how they respond to certain situations, what their reaction time is, practice substitution sets, etc. If they get a win, then that's nice too, but it isn't as important as player evaluation and "blooding" the rookies as to the speed and complexity of the NFL.

respects,
 
Yes, we have found out what happens when Wheatley and Chung cover folks one on one. Of course, there will be defensive schemes during real games that minimize when such a matchup exists.
 
Agreed..

Also on the first play, Slater failed to roll over- he should have recognized the pick play and anticipated. From what I saw, he had zone coverage responsibility.


Actually, what should have happened is that Chung and Butler(?) should have switched men. This would have prevented the pick from succeeding.

Also, I don't know that Slater had Zone Coverage on that.. But I'd have to go back and look.

What that play should teach them is that they are supposed to KNOW what the other defenders are going to do so that they can make that switch seamlessly and prevent the pick from occuring. Chung was so focused on his man that he forgot about the outside defender. And, as such, they and the one Giants receiver all ran into one another.. And the Giants slot receiver was able to get free on the outside.
 
Yes, we have found out what happens when Wheatley and Chung cover folks one on one. Of course, there will be defensive schemes during real games that minimize when such a matchup exists.

Yup... that's what i like about the pre-season. You get to see all sorts of stuff. Stuff that, hopefully, you WON'T see in the regular season... if you get my drift. :)
 
I think we've become the 2000 St.Louis Rams. Get ready for alot of 45-38 games.:eek:
 
Just how many of us are as accountable in life as Belichick is?

More...

this kind of accountability comes with the money he makes; few on chat boards, to which the article refers, or in society at large make seven figure salaries and have eight figure deals. as long as he has the energy, he has at least one more ginormous contract coming to him (maybe two if he wants to work until he is 70); my guess is that, at the end of his career, belichick's lifetime earnings from the NFL plus ancillary income, adjusted to real dollars at the time of his retirement, will be into or close to nine figures.
 
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Actually, what should have happened is that Chung and Butler(?) should have switched men. This would have prevented the pick from succeeding.

Also, I don't know that Slater had Zone Coverage on that.. But I'd have to go back and look.

What that play should teach them is that they are supposed to KNOW what the other defenders are going to do so that they can make that switch seamlessly and prevent the pick from occuring. Chung was so focused on his man that he forgot about the outside defender. And, as such, they and the one Giants receiver all ran into one another.. And the Giants slot receiver was able to get free on the outside.

Precisely.
This is an example of why good DCs love to gameplan against rookie DBs, no matter how fast and physically talented they are. Every season there are a couple of mind freak rookie DBs in the entire NFL who grok the D pretty well right off the bat but most future DB starters just need some seasoning.
 
I think the Patriots defense is going to be weak. Hopefully it gets better by playoff time and the offense has scored enough to get the Patriots in.......I know people will get pissed and say I am a troll but that is how i feel...

I think they may take a while to find out what each individual player does best on defense, but I hardly see a weak defense on paper.
 
Actually, what should have happened is that Chung and Butler(?) should have switched men. This would have prevented the pick from succeeding.

Also, I don't know that Slater had Zone Coverage on that.. But I'd have to go back and look.

What that play should teach them is that they are supposed to KNOW what the other defenders are going to do so that they can make that switch seamlessly and prevent the pick from occuring. Chung was so focused on his man that he forgot about the outside defender. And, as such, they and the one Giants receiver all ran into one another.. And the Giants slot receiver was able to get free on the outside.

From what I can remember, and again I don't have DVR is that it wasn't even a clean pick- just enough to make Chung lose a step. And I distinctly remember Slater as FS hovering, and since you never know what happens with a pick, Slater assumes responsibility as the final line of defense, right?
 
I'll play.

The entire front line. In the 4-2-Nickel BB was using Burgess and TBC on the edge. Inside he rotated Warren/Wilfork with Green/Seymour. Wright or Pryor replace Seymour now that he's been traded. Pryor is unproven, but he sure demonstrated some explosion in preseason and got a lot of pressure on the QB. There's some pocket collapsing power there.

Another element of this Nickel package is Mayo's offseason development and his improved understanding of the defense. He demonstrated a new potential as a blitzer, his partner Adalius Thomas can do the same thing. Let's not forget Guyton contributed to at least two sacks last season pressuring the QB into another rusher as a blitzer from LB, he also recovered a fumble in mid-air, the kid can make some plays as a rusher. Finally we have Meriweather who had two sacks last season, Sanders who was a decent blitzer in college but hasn't been used that way as much with Rodney ahead of him in the blitzing line-up, and Pat Chung who can come in as a Nickel Safety and put on a good blitz too.

Where is the pressure coming from? All over, especially if the CBs can step up to the plate.

Meriweather and Sanders are a year smarter and were working together very well toward the end of last season - improved. Wilhite was starting toward the end of last season, he's done nothing to indicate a decline in preseason - improved over O'Neal and about the same from the end of 2008. Butler is the Nickelback, last season Wilhite was, it looks like an improvement on paper and from preseason. Bodden is the mystery, he looked pretty good in preseason, but until I see him play against Buffalo I can't say he's an upgrade over Hobbs, but I don't think he's a downgrade - we'll see.

Linebackers also factor into this. Mayo was getting better in coverage late in the season, I think he'll continue to improve as the season rolls on. Thomas is pretty good, having him available in Vrabel's old coverage role works for the Pats. Guyton got written up by Reiss for his coverage against Leon Washington in the loss to the Jesters last season, he shut Leon down - that's damned impressive. Woods and TBC have done a decent job when they've been called on in coverage. I've seen Burgess cover the RB into the flat and do a good job, so NE can switch things up a bit and still be effective.

I think the Linebackers will be the key, Mayo is no longer a rookie, neither is Guyton, that is going to make a huge difference, especially as the season works to get them smarter. The other area that will make a difference is the Safeties. Meriweather appeared to make some key mistakes last season as he took over for Rodney, I think those days are past, he's fully seasoned now. Bodden is a veteran, a larger CB more capable of being physical in a phone booth than Hobbs - I think he'll be at least a slight improvement over Hobbs in that regard. Finally, Springs is a veteran who will make a difference in short field situations - he's seen it all before and if healthy (the big if) he'll be able to diagnose plays and disrupt things before they occur.

The things I talked about for Third down apply here too. There is one upgrade in the goal-line package to note - Eric Alexander replaces Larry Izzo. Folks may not have noticed before, but Izzo was a goal-line regular, Alexander is bigger, stronger, better able to take on blockers, and I think an upgrade.

Hurt it? Not so much. Better? Not right away, but let's see how the youngsters develop as they get more experience playing in the time slots Sey would have filled. Change the way Dean Pees does business a bit, yes, that will occur. I think in the short term there will be growing pains as Pees works out who needs to do what to replace everything Sey brought to the table, but I think the overall talent on the DL is up to the task. And you can't argue that big Ron Brace doesn't create an imposing presence inside against the run.

Yet? Perhaps not, but Buffalo is a good tune-up.

If there is anything that has me concerned it's the CB depth chart. Once you get past the apparent starters, Bodden and Wilhite, and Butler as Nickelback, there are questions about Springs (health, age) and Wheatley (slow starter last year and more of the same this year). Chung's ability to help in coverage inside helps, as does Guyton and Mayo's development in the passing game.

I'm giving Wheatley the same benefit of the doubt I've learned to give Ben Watson - Watson, for whatever reason, always seemed to struggle as a blocker at the start of the season, but he got better as the season went on. Wheatley developed that way last season, to the point where he was even inactive for one game, but he was looking reasonable by midseason when he took over O'Neal's slot.

We may also see Mike Richardson back in NE colors later in the season if his hand heals enough and there is an opening after an injury, he's not that bad a CB.
Very good thoughtful post Cousin. You took a lot of time on this.
Bravo.
DW Toys
 
Chung didn't get "burned" so much on the 1st play as he did get illegally picked and the Refs blew it.

On the 2nd one, he just played the coverage wrong. The way he was lined up made it easy for the WR out of the slot to break outside and be wide open..

The biggest knock on Chung coming out of college was that his pass coverage was the weakest part of his game. It's something that the Pats decided to drive home to him in the last pre-season. That he needs to work on that more than anything..
Good point.
DW Toys
 
So, you have said so over and over again, both before the Seymour trade and after it. I have seen no difference in tone, confidence or prediction before and afte the trade. [BEvents don't change your confidence.[/B]

Should I conclude that Seymour and any ex-patriot makes no difference in our predictions? Perhaps nothing makes any difference. Perhaps, in any case, many here would simply predict that our offense and defense would be good enough by season's end to take us to the Super Bowl. After all, haven't we all done that since 2001, and with good reason?

So, yes, we are all fans. And one way to express that is to expect us to win the Superbowl and for the defense to be up to the task. These predictions need not change with the trading of Seymour or Wilfork or anyone else.

I've also said repeatedly that trading Seymour clearly does not improve the defense or the team in the short term. But it doesn't change my fundamental confidence that the defense should come together and be improved.

Trading Seymour doesn't affect the improvements in the secondary, where we have better speed and depth than before. Yes, we haven't replaced Rodney Harrison circa 2003-2004, the 2003 version of Ty Law, or the 2006 version of Asante Samuel. But we have a lot better depth at CB than we've had for a while, and much better athleticism than last year. Meriweather has shown steady improvement and looks poised to be an impact safety this year, Sanders and McGowan are solid, and Chung is doing fine and will likely be a contributor by mid season. I feel confident that our red zone and third down defense will be improved by our secondary, and that better coverage will allow us to finally stop playing those frustrating soft zone coverages and allow us to unleash a more aggressive pass rush. So no, trading Seymour does not affect my confidence in this unit.

Mayo was a stud as a rookie, and should be markedly improved this year, as should Guyton after a year to learn the system. They are bigger than before, which will hopefully allow them to stand up to the wear and tear of a 16 game season better. Learning the system should allow them to be a bit more instinctual, and a bit more aggressive, which seemed to be the case in the preseason as both were involved in sacks. Adalius Thomas remains a stud. I believe the Seymour trade was partially a vote in confidence for Derrick Burgess, who could make a significant impact as a pass rusher for us at both 4-3 DE and 3-4 OLB. I'm not very concerned about the losses of Vrabel or Bruschi, whose age and lack of speed was as much a drawback as an asset last year. I have been and remain concerned about the lack of depth at LB and injuries could be a major factor, but I feel that we have more speed and athleticism than in some time. So no, trading Seymour does not affect my confidence in this unit.

The DL looked dominant in the preseason, and Seymour was certainly a part of that. I don't expect the DL to be improved with Seymour's loss. But Brace and Pryor showed a lot of promise in the preseason, and I interpret the Seymour trade in part as being a vote of confidence in them. I think that BB will be able to run a lot of different schemes using his personnel to the best advantage, and that we should see a better pass rush. The run defense was excellent in the preseason, and I see Brace and Wilfork potentially forming an Adams-Siragusa (or Wilfork-Traylor) unit in the middle which shuts down the run in a big way. So while I don't think the Seymour trade helps the DL, it hasn't eroded my confidence in that unit to the point where I would make a major revision to my previous assessment.

I wouldn't say that events don't change my confidence. An injury to Wilfork, Mayo, AD or Meriweather would change my confidence in a big way. Failure of some players to develop as I hope them to may change my confidence. As regards the specific event of trading Seymour doesn't make this a better defense, but it fundamentally doesn't change my assessment right now. Of course, I may be wrong. I've never claimed omniscience, unlike some on this board.
 
I think the Patriots defense is going to be weak. Hopefully it gets better by playoff time and the offense has scored enough to get the Patriots in.......I know people will get pissed and say I am a troll but that is how i feel...

I complain about the bad trades, bad draft picks, etc.

I guess I fel thats part of being a fan of your favorite team.

Make no mistake though, I would not trade Bill for any other coach. I believe he is the best head coach the NFL has or will ever see.

I understand the salay cap and how it affects all NFL teams. Its impossible to keep a great team together. We as fans must suck it up, Bill knows what heis doing.
 
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