Seven Linebackers?

[Ring 6]

I am not one who complains because Belichick hasn't succeeded enough. After all, there are folks who speak of the 2007 team as a team with major weaknesses, ignoring they were a circus catch away from being the best team to ever have played in the NFL.

And yes, the defense moved steadily downhill, not all at once. And whose fault is that? It took Belichick a long, long time to rebuild the linebacker corp. The issues in the secondary are well known. Even TODAY, we'd be better off with Ihedigbo or Meriweather as our #3 safety.


Yes, there have been draft errors and draft wins. That is not my issue and problem.

For half a decade, Belichick was known for having a great back half of the roster. Belichick hired many old vets, some for a year or two. Belichick took great advantage at the veteran discount still provided by the CBA. We won with guys like my man OTIS. Now, the patriots have adopted a different approach for backups. the kiddie corps. Our backups are now NOT the envy of the league. Other than Fletcher and Dante's great approach to the OL, we arguably have no reliable backups. Hopefully, Blount will be an exception.

Belichick took care of business this offseason, except for two areas. One was the dumping
of Welker. The other was the lack of the signing of veteran backups. It seems that Kelly and A Wilson were brought in because we needed starter at DL and SS.

Maybe we really will be better offer off with Buchanan, Bequette, Vellano, and Francis with ZERO veteran presence. I just don't see it. Perhaps this is as good as last year, perhaps not. Perhaps we will miss Scott, Cunningham, Love and Deaderick, or at least one of them. It is great to bring in developmental players. It is another to totally give up on any veteran backups. And just BTW, pinning our hopes on a CFL player is still not having a veteran presence.

I think you are exaggerating the amount ,effectiveness, and contributions of veteran backups.

 

[mgteich]

I like younger players that a team develops. I believe that both these players are in their 3rd year. It is well to note that the TE has had good role models and has developed well.
This is not the same as counting on backups with zero or almost zero experience as we are across the defense (except for Fletcher).

We will see how well Welker does over the season. My gut feeling is the Manning and Elway are very happy to have Welker. They are more than happy that the patriots chose Amendola over Welker. Manning needed a threat in the slot. He now has one.

He did have a good night, no doubt about it, but Wes Welker 2-3 years ago would have taken 9 catches for a lot more than 67 yards. Also what Welker did was not the key to the success of the Broncos, the key to their success last night was primarily based on their younger player.

D. Thomas – 5 receptions, 161 yards, 2 touchdowns
J. Thomas – 5 receptions, 110 yards, 2 touchdowns

 

[RayClay]

I'm not sure how 7 is more than double 6.
Sterling Moore? For real?

In today's game, you need lots of coverage people. I thought Moore made some good plays last year and he can play special teams.

We're talking about players on the margins, after all.

The other part was dumb, but who played LB besides Spikes, Hightower and Mayo last year? We've already added Collins and Fletcher. How many special teams only linebackers do we need to add to that?

I guess I'd rather have a guy who made big plays on the ball, interceptions, and played multiple positions, at a position where there are always injuries, than a logjam behind three starters, a high pick and Fletcher, who played a lot. I would think a sixth LB special teamer and a practice squadder should suffice.

 

[RayClay]

Here's the total snaps at LB in 2012. We've added a veteran and a high pick.

The only player with significant snaps is also the special teams captain type. I'd rather have a backup CB that might help out once in a while and keep six.

Linebacker
Jerod Mayo – 1,066 of 1,112 – 95.9 percent
Brandon Spikes – 736 of 1,112 – 66.2 percent
Dont’a Hightower – 574 of 1,112 – 51.6 percent
Tracy White – 71 of 1,112 – 6.4 percent
Mike Rivera – 19 of 1,112 – 1.7 percent
Niko Koutouvides – 9 of 1,112 – less than 1 percent
Bobby Carpenter – 6 of 1,112 – less than 1 percent
Jeff Tarpinian – 6 of 1,112 – less than 1 percent

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/category/_/name/defensive-snaps-2

 

[mgteich]

Perhaps, but surely Cunningham was very useful on the 2012 team.

But to be clear,

1) Do you oppose signing a 9th DL?

2) Do you oppose signing a DE and a DT, even if this would mean losing a ST/LB.

I think you are exaggerating the amount ,effectiveness, and contributions of veteran backups.

 

[Ring 6]

Perhaps, but surely Cunningham was very useful on the 2012 team.

But to be clear,

1) Do you oppose signing a 9th DL?

2) Do you oppose signing a DE and a DT, even if this would mean losing a ST/LB.

I'm good with signing anyone who will help. I was just commenting that the quantity and quality of veteran depth in the past seems to me to be less than you perceive.
If we say Cunningham was a great vet backup that is one guy not a roster shortage.

 

[mcmurtry86]

They're not going to dress 6 CB and 5 S. I doubt they even dress 10 DB most games. No point in adding an 11th DB.

 

[Ring 6]

In today's game, you need lots of coverage people. I thought Moore made some good plays last year and he can play special teams.

We're talking about players on the margins, after all.

The other part was dumb, but who played LB besides Spikes, Hightower and Mayo last year? We've already added Collins and Fletcher. How many special teams only linebackers do we need to add to that?

At different times we used Carpenter, Tracy White and Rivera played LB. Ninkovich moved there when Hightower was out, and clearly we don't want that.
2 legit reserve LBs one who may play more in sub than 'starters' play in base is not unreasonable.
The 2 st LBs is normal.
LB and DB have different st roles, so we need both.
I'm not sure what a 6th corner will do for us, but we have one on the practice sqaud.

I guess I'd rather have a guy who made big plays on the ball, interceptions, and played multiple positions, at a position where there are always injuries, than a logjam behind three starters, a high pick and Fletcher, who played a lot. I would think a sixth LB special teamer and a practice squadder should suffice.

You seem to be arguing one logjammed special teamer is better than another. I dont know that 6th corner is any more likely to be called into action that 3rd MLB or 4th OLB.

But also we have Cole, Slater, Ebner, Wilson, Harmon, Arrington and Ryan as 'db type sters' and Beauharnais, White, Fletcher, Collins as 'lb type sters' so its hard to see how a db would be more useful.

 

[RayClay]

At different times we used Carpenter, Tracy White and Rivera played LB. Ninkovich moved there when Hightower was out, and clearly we don't want that.
2 legit reserve LBs one who may play more in sub than 'starters' play in base is not unreasonable.
The 2 st LBs is normal.
LB and DB have different st roles, so we need both.
I'm not sure what a 6th corner will do for us, but we have one on the practice sqaud.


You seem to be arguing one logjammed special teamer is better than another. I dont know that 6th corner is any more likely to be called into action that 3rd MLB or 4th OLB.

But also we have Cole, Slater, Ebner, Wilson, Harmon, Arrington and Ryan as 'db type sters' and Beauharnais, White, Fletcher, Collins as 'lb type sters' so its hard to see how a db would be more useful.

I guess as long as we have Slater and Ebner, we're all set.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind picking up Moore at some point if needed, assuming he doesn't have practice squad eligibility left.

 

[Ring 6]

I guess as long as we have Slater and Ebner, we're all set.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind picking up Moore at some point if needed, assuming he doesn't have practice squad eligibility left.

Moore is terrible.

 

[RayClay]

Moore is terrible.

I'm not sure what a 6th corner will do for us, but we have one on the practice sqaud.

You're right, Justin Green is much better.

And we never find ourselves in need of a db having to throw guys in there. Except every other year, it seems.

Earthwind Moreland, Antwuan Moulden, Matthew Slater, etc. etc.

 

[BobDigital]

When you consider Collins is also a backup at DE it makes a little more sense.

If need be just put him there in pass rushing situations.

 

[mgteich]

My issue with your analysis is that you think that the team considers Harmon, Wilson, and Ebner to actually be useful as defensive backs. These three are special teamers. Even we if allow that Wilson is our #3 S (and active as such), we still have 3 safeties and 5 corners, a total of 8, a reasonable number of active defensive backs.

What we are discussing is whether to sign a backup now (who will likely be inactive) or wait until the week when we need him, and sign a street free agent and get him ready in a few days. IMHO, it is better strategy to sign a backup CB (or S) now and have him learn the system. That way, we have a backup when needed.

Surely, it is POSSIBLE that Dennard or Talib might miss a couple of games.

And yes, obviously, if no one better than Green is available, then we won't pick up a defensive back.

They're not going to dress 6 CB and 5 S. I doubt they even dress 10 DB most games. No point in adding an 11th DB.

 

[RayClay]

My issue with your analysis is that you think that the team considers Harmon, Wilson, and Ebner to actually be useful as defensive backs. These three are special teamers. Even we if allow that Wilson is our #3 S (and active as such), we still have 3 safeties and 5 corners, a total of 8, a reasonable number of active defensive backs.

What we are discussing is whether to sign a backup now (who will likely be inactive) or wait until the week when we need him, and sign a street free agent and get him ready in a few days. IMHO, it is better strategy to sign a backup CB (or S) now and have him learn the system. That way, we have a backup when needed.

Surely, it is POSSIBLE that Dennard or Talib might miss a couple of games.

And yes, obviously, if no one better than Green is available, then we won't pick up a defensive back.

Green is on the practice squad for some reason. Probably to give Mallet confidence.

I suppose this could change but I saw plenty of Green in the preseason, none of it good.

 

[Ring 6]

You're right, Justin Green is much better.

And we never find ourselves in need of a db having to throw guys in there. Except every other year, it seems.

Earthwind Moreland, Antwuan Moulden, Matthew Slater, etc. etc.

Yeah, he is.
Not sure what your point is. Every team, every year needs to bring in players to replace injured men. Your point seems to be that you want a roster that overcomes that. Not sure how that happens. You only get 53.

 

[Ring 6]

My issue with your analysis is that you think that the team considers Harmon, Wilson, and Ebner to actually be useful as defensive backs. These three are special teamers. Even we if allow that Wilson is our #3 S (and active as such), we still have 3 safeties and 5 corners, a total of 8, a reasonable number of active defensive backs.

What we are discussing is whether to sign a backup now (who will likely be inactive) or wait until the week when we need him, and sign a street free agent and get him ready in a few days. IMHO, it is better strategy to sign a backup CB (or S) now and have him learn the system. That way, we have a backup when needed.

Surely, it is POSSIBLE that Dennard or Talib might miss a couple of games.

And yes, obviously, if no one better than Green is available, then we won't pick up a defensive back.

We have 5 corners. How many do you want?

 

[mgteich]

I agree.

The open question is how best to overcome the need for backup on the 53 plus Practice Squad, and NFI. IMHO, we have at least 2 opportunities, the open roster spot, and the possibility of carrying one fewer LB on the 53.

Obviously, I respect Belichick's choices. However, I hope for a 9th DL.

QUOTE=AndyJohnson;3545144]Yeah, he is.
Not sure what your point is. Every team, every year needs to bring in players to replace injured men. Your point seems to be that you want a roster that overcomes that. Not sure how that happens. You only get 53.[/QUOTE]

 

[RayClay]

I don't see the current number of defensive backs written on stone. What if Ras I and Adrian Wilson had been healthy?

Obviously, any position can have injuries, but i put it to the forum, have we spent more than a few seasons scrambling for anyone on the waiver wire - cutting, trying out and putting up with some awful play?

I think Moore is a decent guy with ball skills who hustles and has played both CB and DB on this team. Even if they cut him, why not have someone out there (shadow roster)who has played on the team in case of injury, which we always seem to have at DB? I believe we carried twice as many reserve DEs last year than this (4 then, Buchanan and Bequette [speaking of dead weight] now.

 

[goheels22002]

I simply don't understand.

You suggest that White and Kout are similar as players and in their NFL careers, and then you compare their physical attributes. I guess I don't understand your analysis.

We don't need younger models in players at the bottom of the rosters who will likely be here for a year (or less). We need better models. BTW, Belichick keeps top STer even after they are seasoned vets. Tracey White would still be here if he were healthy. If Chris White is a better special teamer than Kout, I'm 100% fine with keeping him. I would note that if this is so, then White is certainly a better STer than Beauharnais.

White is 4/100 of a second faster in the three cone drill. If things don't work out with the Patriots, he's got a future at Ben & Jerry's!

 

[Ring 6]

I agree.

The open question is how best to overcome the need for backup on the 53 plus Practice Squad, and NFI. IMHO, we have at least 2 opportunities, the open roster spot, and the possibility of carrying one fewer LB on the 53.

Obviously, I respect Belichick's choices. However, I hope for a 9th DL.

QUOTE=AndyJohnson;3545144]Yeah, he is.
Not sure what your point is. Every team, every year needs to bring in players to replace injured men. Your point seems to be that you want a roster that overcomes that. Not sure how that happens. You only get 53.

[/QUOTE]
I wish we had starting quality backups but who ever does?

I think Bequette and Buchanan have a chance to be as good as we have had at DE in depth in awhile, probably since Wright. Just need to see what they produce. Cant be much worse than Ellis, Deaderick, and other retreads.

At DT it surely is scary, but when have we had backup DTs that did more than eat space. Vellano actually could be a better inside pass rusher than any true DT we have had in years. Just gotta see what happens.

LB depth is as good as I remember.

At corner our top 3 were very effective when they were together and our 4th is a 3rd round pick who looks ready.

At safety our depth are pretty high picks the last 2 years. That is favorable compared to most teams.

We will see what happens, but I'm not that worried that we have young guys as backups instead of veterans who have never been good enough to earn a job, but I understand your concern.