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Seven Linebackers?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by RayClay, Sep 5, 2013.

  1. RayClay

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    and that doesn't include Nink, or any of the pass rushers that might play OLB in the 3-4. Is this efficient roster management? I'd like to see Sterling Moore or other CB plopped into the 53.

    Your thoughts on the constitution, if not particular players, of the current roster.
  2. Brady6

    Brady6 On the Roster

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    If you just look at it in terms of front 7 players it makes more sense.

    2012
    1. Wilfork
    2. Love
    3. Brace/Fortson
    4. Deaderick
    5. Jones
    6. Ninkovich
    7. Scott
    8. Bequette
    9. Francis
    10. Cunningham
    11. Hightower
    12. Koutouvides
    13. Mayo
    14. Rivera
    15. Spikes
    16. T. White

    2013
    1. Wilfork
    2. Kelly
    3. Vellano
    4. Francis
    5. Jones
    6. Ninkovich
    7. Bequette
    8. Buchanan
    9. Mayo
    10. Spikes
    11. Hightower
    12. Collins
    13. Fletcher
    14. Beauharnais
    15. C. White

    In reality it just seems Belichick has decided he favors more athletic LB’s over heavier less athletic down linemen.
  3. RayClay

    RayClay On the Roster

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    I disagree. Another corner that plays special teams would be invaluable.

    You are comparing it to a year where we were holding virtual tryouts for anyone to rush the passer besides Jones and Nink. That competition is resolving itself with a thud, but there is no such need to audition 4-3 linebackers...seven of them where we got by with three last year.

    It's more than numbers, look at the value on the roster.

    You foresee us playing a 2-5 base defense this year?
  4. Brady6

    Brady6 On the Roster

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    I guess I look at things like this:

    2012 | 2013
    NT- Wilfork | Wilfork
    DT- Deaderick | Kelly
    RDE- Jones | Jones
    LDE- Ninkovich | Ninkovich
    OLB- Hightower | Hightower
    WILB- Mayo | Mayo
    SILB- Spikes | Spikes
    DT- Love | Vellano
    DT- Brace/Fortson | Francis
    DE - Cunningham | Buchanan
    DE- Bequette | Bequette
    DE- Francis | N/A
    DE/LB- Scott | Collins
    LB- T. White | Fletcher
    LB- Rivera | Beauharnais
    LB- Koutouvides | C. White

    For what it is worth I agree 100% that we need another corner, specifically a corner that can provide depth on the outside, I was just pointing out that the total number of players actually less dedicated to the front 7.

    In terms of sub packages I’m not sure I think you will see a number of looks, these are a couple looks I wouldn’t be shocked to see that others likely disagree with:

    4-2-5

    DE/LB – Ninkovich | Odd LB – Hightower | DT – Wilfork | DE – Jones

    LB – Collins | LB – Mayo

    LCB – Talib | STAR – Arrington | RCB – Dennard | S – McCourty | S – Gregory

    3-3-5

    DE – Ninkovich | NT – Wilfork | DE – Jones

    LB – Hightower | LB – Mayo | LB – Collins

    LCB – Talib | STAR – Arrington | RCB – Dennard | S – McCourty | S – Gregory
  5. RayClay

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    Yes, they loaded up on pass rushers last year, just as i said. Unfortunately, it was for naught, except maybe identifying francis.

    I see no similar need to more than double the amount of linebackers. I assume it's to get them one onto the practice squad.
  6. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I suspect that Koutouvides will be returning sooner rather than later.
  7. RayClay

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    I suppose the LBs are better special teamers than the ones they replace, but i doubt it.
  8. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    THE THREE POSITIONS
    If we are trying to replace the special team skills of Kout, White and Rivera (and Tarp) with Fletcher, White and Beauharnais, then I don't think that we've done a very good job.

    THE FIFTEEN FRONT SEVEN
    DE 4
    DT 4
    LB 4
    LB/ST 3 (Fletcher is fine)

    The issue for me is whether we should have another DE/LB to replace Scott and Cunningham.
    IMHO, we could go with one fewer STer. Posters have been agreeing for month that we needed a maximum of 6 linebackers.

  9. Brady6

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    Honestly I would have agreed that Koutouvides would be returning up until they added Chris White, now though looking at them as players and their NFL careers White could pass for Koutouvides little brother, it is my opinion that Belichick traded in his ST LB for a newer model.

    Niko Koutouvides
    Height: 6024
    Weight: 244
    40 Yrd Dash: 4.71
    20 Yrd Dash: 2.79
    10 Yrd Dash: 1.65
    225 Lb. Bench Reps: 17
    Vertical Jump: 30 1/2
    Broad Jump: 09'00"
    20 Yrd Shuttle: 3.89
    3-Cone Drill: 6.99

    Chris White
    Height: 6026
    Weight: 240
    40 Yrd Dash: 4.74
    20 Yrd Dash: 2.64
    10 Yrd Dash: 1.62
    225 Lb. Bench Reps: 17
    Vertical Jump: 34
    Broad Jump: 09'07"
    20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.25
    3-Cone Drill: 6.95
  10. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I simply don't understand.

    You suggest that White and Kout are similar as players and in their NFL careers, and then you compare their physical attributes. I guess I don't understand your analysis.

    We don't need younger models in players at the bottom of the rosters who will likely be here for a year (or less). We need better models. BTW, Belichick keeps top STer even after they are seasoned vets. Tracey White would still be here if he were healthy. If Chris White is a better special teamer than Kout, I'm 100% fine with keeping him. I would note that if this is so, then White is certainly a better STer than Beauharnais.

  11. Brady6

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    Re: Re: Seven Linebackers?

    Statically speaking they're similar in the first several years of their careers, the physical comparison was more to show the little brother component.

    I do think you share a totally different perspective than Belichick's current approach to team building. Your views seem to be more indicative of the older Belichick team building model in which veterans are considered a valuable commodity, I don't think that has been the case since 2009 of prior, the new Belichick model is all about youth, outside of Brady he enters every year attempting to get younger at every position.

    Especially at the bottom of the roster, that's where you want your young developmental players.
  12. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If you are accusing me of preferring the team building approach before Brady came back to that after he back, I plead guilty. I greatly prefer the teams of 2001-2007 those of 2009-2012.

  13. Brady6

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    Re: Re: Seven Linebackers?

    That's all well and good but that approach wasn't working anymore and Belichick saw it and made a commitment to change it.
  14. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    To state the obvious, we'll see how getting a younger version of our receiving corps works out. The old man did OK tonight.

  15. RayClay

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    Precisely. I'm not looking to understaff special teams positions, but the excess pass rushers seems to have been an experiment that has settled. I think Buchanan looks promising and if no other pass rusher does and all those LBs aren't essential, why not a spot for a CB, who will be used in today's passing game?
  16. captain stone

    captain stone Rookie

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    No Jersey Selected

    I really really hope that those suspicions are unfounded.
  17. ewg_gestalt

    ewg_gestalt Rookie

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    It's a valid team-building approach, but it produces a windowβ€”the problem was everybody started falling apart around the same time on the defense, and the whole scheme came crashing down.

    The other challenge is that in the long run, such a model is not financially viable. You have to cut costs where you can so that you can afford to pay your big names the big bucks they're looking for.

    Belichick has decided to focus on trying to maximize possibilities, and it's hard to complain with the results too much. Some championships would be nice, but the fact that there hasn't been a losing season since 2001, in this day and age, with all of the restructuring and rebuilding, is pretty damn impressive in and of itself!
  18. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I am not one who complains because Belichick hasn't succeeded enough. After all, there are folks who speak of the 2007 team as a team with major weaknesses, ignoring they were a circus catch away from being the best team to ever have played in the NFL.

    And yes, the defense moved steadily downhill, not all at once. And whose fault is that? It took Belichick a long, long time to rebuild the linebacker corp. The issues in the secondary are well known. Even TODAY, we'd be better off with Ihedigbo or Meriweather as our #3 safety.


    Yes, there have been draft errors and draft wins. That is not my issue and problem.

    For half a decade, Belichick was known for having a great back half of the roster. Belichick hired many old vets, some for a year or two. Belichick took great advantage at the veteran discount still provided by the CBA. We won with guys like my man OTIS. Now, the patriots have adopted a different approach for backups. the kiddie corps. Our backups are now NOT the envy of the league. Other than Fletcher and Dante's great approach to the OL, we arguably have no reliable backups. Hopefully, Blount will be an exception.

    Belichick took care of business this offseason, except for two areas. One was the dumping
    of Welker. The other was the lack of the signing of veteran backups. It seems that Kelly and A Wilson were brought in because we needed starter at DL and SS.

    Maybe we really will be better offer off with Buchanan, Bequette, Vellano, and Francis with ZERO veteran presence. I just don't see it. Perhaps this is as good as last year, perhaps not. Perhaps we will miss Scott, Cunningham, Love and Deaderick, or at least one of them. It is great to bring in developmental players. It is another to totally give up on any veteran backups. And just BTW, pinning our hopes on a CFL player is still not having a veteran presence.

  19. Brady6

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    He did have a good night, no doubt about it, but Wes Welker 2-3 years ago would have taken 9 catches for a lot more than 67 yards. Also what Welker did was not the key to the success of the Broncos, the key to their success last night was primarily based on their younger player.

    D. Thomas – 5 receptions, 161 yards, 2 touchdowns
    J. Thomas – 5 receptions, 110 yards, 2 touchdowns
  20. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm not sure how 7 is more than double 6.
    Sterling Moore? For real?

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