Seeking a #4 and #8 Receiving Target

[JoeSixPat]

You said we need a guy who can get 65-75 catches and 900-1000 yards.
Thats what Lloyd did.

I get you don't like the guy, but saying what we need is exactly what he produced makes your argument look whacky.

He was 25th among WRs and 6th among #2 WRs, aiming higher is great, but easier said than done. You won't get that from a rookie.

I'm still not understanding the amount of time and effort some are putting into rationalizing Lloyd as playing his role adequately.

Belichick has weighed in. He disagrees with you.

This all reminds me of the vigorous defense of Reche Caldwell and his 61 catches among some Patsfans after the 2006 season - an argument bolstered by their heralded fact that statistically the Patriots were still among the top offenses in the league and were Super Bowl contenders.

After Caldwell's "successful" season in which he had nearly as many catches as Lloyd, and just as many touchdowns, he was cut, struggled to catch on with another team, and his career was more or less over.

Like Lloyd, he had a decent number of catches, but when Belichck looked beyond the stats he saw a very flawed WR. I have a feeling he made a similar assessment of Lloyd, despite those who will use statstics to show that Belichick was wrong to cut him.

My feeling is that Belichick doesn't get bogged down on simple stats - whether it's Reche Caldwell or Brandon Lloyd, and he wants someone who can play the role of flanker better.

Those who look only at Lloyd's catches and yards will never understand Belichick's rationale, but thank goodness they're not the GM.

 

[mgteich]

Agreed. We are counting on having healthy TE's for 2013. If not, we will again blame injuries for our loss, instead of planning.

Yup. They are doing what they can but the 2013 WRs will be hard pressed to match the productivity of the 2012 WRs.

 

[Ring 6]

Yup. They are doing what they can but the 2013 WRs will be hard pressed to match the productivity of the 2012 WRs.

That may be only to the extent that the TEs are both healthy.
Comparing to 2011 may be a better example.

 

[Ring 6]

Agreed. We are counting on having healthy TE's for 2013. If not, we will again blame injuries for our loss, instead of planning.

Are you implying that bring in Fells, Hooman, and Shaincoe was an irresponsible plan for backup TEs who will play 10 snaps a game if Gronk and Hernandez are healthy?

 

[Ring 6]

I'm still not understanding the amount of time and effort some are putting into rationalizing Lloyd as playing his role adequately.

He was 25th among all WRs in receiving yards, and 6th among #2s.

Belichick has weighed in. He disagrees with you.

Of course you know that is wrong. Money had a lot to do with that decision, and we have yet to see the end result. We know he was negotiating with him, so your guess at his weighing in is dubious at best.

This all reminds me of the vigorous defense of Reche Caldwell and his 61 catches among some Patsfans after the 2006 season - an argument bolstered by their heralded fact that statistically the Patriots were still among the top offenses in the league and were Super Bowl contenders.

And they were. And but for the defense falling apart they would have won the SB.

After Caldwell's "successful" season in which he had nearly as many catches as Lloyd, and just as many touchdowns, he was cut, struggled to catch on with another team, and his career was more or less over.

And they are different players. Trying to trash Lloyd by using a different player (who has no connection at all) and his failures, just proves your argument is a tremendous reach, or at the least heavily biased.

Like Lloyd, he had a decent number of catches, but when Belichck looked beyond the stats he saw a very flawed WR. I have a feeling he made a similar assessment of Lloyd, despite those who will use statstics to show that Belichick was wrong to cut him.

Bill shared this with you?
The cut was based on money, not production.,

My feeling is that Belichick doesn't get bogged down on simple stats - whether it's Reche Caldwell or Brandon Lloyd, and he wants someone who can play the role of flanker better.

Stats are simply a representation of his play. And yes BB gets 'bogged down' in how players play.
Lloyd was a Split end, not a flanker.

Those who look only at Lloyd's catches and yards will never understand Belichick's rationale, but thank goodness they're not the GM.

Those who ignore on the field production and pretend their opinions are reading Belichicks mind are doomed to make ridiculous comments like that one.

 

[JoeSixPat]

He was 25th among all WRs in receiving yards, and 6th among #2s.


Of course you know that is wrong. Money had a lot to do with that decision, and we have yet to see the end result. We know he was negotiating with him, so your guess at his weighing in is dubious at best.


And they were. And but for the defense falling apart they would have won the SB.


And they are different players. Trying to trash Lloyd by using a different player (who has no connection at all) and his failures, just proves your argument is a tremendous reach, or at the least heavily biased.


Bill shared this with you?
The cut was based on money, not production.,


Stats are simply a representation of his play. And yes BB gets 'bogged down' in how players play.
Lloyd was a Split end, not a flanker.


Those who ignore on the field production and pretend their opinions are reading Belichicks mind are doomed to make ridiculous comments like that one.

Wow - that's just far too many snarky insults and delusions to respond to right now.

Bottom line, Lloyd was signed to what most considered a pretty affordable contract - many Patsfans - possibly including you - heralded what a great, cheap deal we got him for.

However Belichick felt his play was not even worth that - and when the parties could not come to terms on an even cheaper contract Belichick was content to let him walk AND eat the $2 million cap hit, even knowing he'd have to pay an additional salary to replace him.

I think I'll just let your defense of Caldwell speak for itself.

Your argument really isn't with me - it's with Belichick.

No offense, but I trust Belichick's football knowledge more than yours.

 

[Ring 6]

Wow - that's just far too many snarky insults and delusions to respond to right now.

You went there, I just responded.

Bottom line, Lloyd was signed to what most considered a pretty affordable contract - many Patsfans - possibly including you - heralded what a great, cheap deal we got him for.

Possibly me? For real, thats your argument?
I was a good price for year 1 and not a good price for year 2.

However Belichick felt his play was not even worth that - and when the parties could not come to terms on an even cheaper contract Belichick was content to let him walk AND eat the $2 million cap hit, even knowing he'd have to pay an additional salary to replace him.

Finally you recognize it was about money.

I think I'll just let your defense of Caldwell speak for itself.

No defense, just pointing out facts.

Your argument really isn't with me - it's with Belichick.

No, its with you. I agree with Belichick.

No offense, but I trust Belichick's football knowledge more than yours.

Which has nothing to do with this conversation. We are discussing my opinions vs yours, not Belichicks, even if the only arrow you have in your quiver is to act as if you are speaking for him, which of course is foolish.

 

[JoeSixPat]

You went there, I just responded.


Possibly me? For real, thats your argument?
I was a good price for year 1 and not a good price for year 2.


Finally you recognize it was about money.


No defense, just pointing out facts.


No, its with you. I agree with Belichick.


Which has nothing to do with this conversation. We are discussing my opinions vs yours, not Belichicks, even if the only arrow you have in your quiver is to act as if you are speaking for him, which of course is foolish.

I'm not sure what your argument is - Belichick cut him. That's a fact.

And he was willing to take a $2 million cap hit, just to part ways with Lloyd.

If he'd played his role well, a $3 million roster bonus would have been NOTHING any Patsfan, GM or salary cap guru would have complained about.

So it wasn't just money - it was his value (i.e the combination of performance & price)

 

[mgteich]

$3M option bonus plus $1.9M salary probably plus the normal $100K workout bonus is a total of $5M. The patriots decided that Lloyd wasn't worth $5M. The team tried to have him restructure a contract with a reduction or elimination of the bonus. So, the team wanted him, but not at $5M. He didn't produce to be worth $5M in the current market.

I'm not sure what your argument is - Belichick cut him. That's a fact.

And he was willing to take a $2 million cap hit, just to part ways with Lloyd.

If he'd played his role well, a $3 million roster bonus would have been NOTHING any Patsfan, GM or salary cap guru would have complained about.

So it wasn't just money - it was his value (i.e the combination of performance & price)