Seattle 4-3 Under Defense

[Drewski]

Good stuff man. I agree about NFL offenses conitnuing to evolve into up-tempo, speed offenses and I think that is something that needs to be considered when building a defense. That is one of the things I like about the Seattle scheme, is that it is relatively simple, doesn't require a huge amount of reads and doesn't beat itself trying to figure out complex offenses. Its basically a primary and secondary read defense where you try and create a favorable match-up and then just go out, do your job and beat your man. I think thats a great defensive philosophy when offenses are getting so complex and difficult, to simplify it and just play.

In terms of creating a more pressure focused defense, I think our base defense was actually very good for most of last season. They did a great job stopping the run and generally put themselves in good positions on 2nd and 3rd down. Its these 3rd downs and obvious passing situations where I completely agree that we need a huge emphasis on pressure. I think we saw a great improvement last year with the switch to a more aggressive press man coverage with Talib and Dennard. I don't think it was the fact that Talib was a huge upgrade over the other corners which is what made it succesful (although he certainly was better), I think it was the aggressive philosophy that made the difference. Playing press man on the outside with confidence in your CB's allows a defense to be much more aggressive and exotic with its pressure and much more unpredictable.

I think for our sub packages to improve (which is where we need the most pressure) I think we need our secondary to be set, healthy and possess the right skill-set (big, physical cover CB's, deep CF free safety, physical SS to match up with TE's). We also need an upgrade on our interior pressure which hopefully Armond Armstead can provide and hopefully another acquisition, either by FA or the Draft (I really like Glenn Dorsey).

In terms of offense I completely agree. We currently don't have anyone that can threaten the deep outside part of the field, which allows defenses to bunch the middle and target Gronk and Hernandez. An outside threat that ideally has some size and can stretch the defense not only vertically but the safeties horizontally would be huge. You can never have too many weapons on offense, and I think taking some pressure off of Gronk, AHern and Welker can only be a good thing. I said last year that if Gronk continues to put up record numbers it wouldn't be a good sign for the offense. I would rather reduce their workload, keep them healthy and diversify the offense so if injury does happen (which is inevitable) that we can adjust and adapt.

I'm having a really hard time getting a read on Dion Jordan. He is obviously a freak athlete and I'm sure everyone would love a shot at seeing what they can do with him, but I just don't know what his position or role would be. He's not a DE that can line up with his hand in the dirt. He's not a great pass rusher to play as a rush LBer. He does have the freak athletecism to drop into coverage and move around the field, but I struggle finding a position for him. Can he play 4-3 OLB? I don't know. Versatility is great but I think you need a primary role first and I struggle finding that with Jordan. However, if he falls into the late 2nd/3rd round I wouldn't hesitate to take him and try and figure it out from there, but where he will likely be taken is too much of a risk for me.

I would agree. Our sub packages need to get far better pressure.

My eyes seem to tell me that far too often the defense gets to 3rd down only to give the Henne/Fitzy/Moores of the world all day in the pocket to find the guy over the middle who happened to be uncovered 8 seconds post snap. We seemingly don't get much pressure from the inside and when we do get pressure on the outside, the result is the QB can just step up and reset. Have to work on that.

Beyond that, to expect any secondary and our's especially, to cover everyone for that amount of time just isn't a recipe for success IMHO.

The good news is we got TFB for 3-4 more years?? And while I expect some regression from his greatness as he nears the end of his illustrious career, I still think we are only a couple of tweaks (and good fortune) from truly getting back to where we all want to be.

But recognizing that he is nearing the end, I would like to have the team shape shift to a "not relying on TFB 100% of the time" to win. I would love some "ugly" wins like we were used to seeing during the dynasty years.

As for Dion Jordan - I can't say what he would be good/great at. But I am intrigued by him from a "form factor". A 6'7 guy with length and some speed and the apparent ability to drop in coverage or attack the QB is something we don't have. He certainly doesn't seem to fits BB's scheme, but I think we have so many "scheme specific" players on our team, that we need some one trick ponys (ala Mark Anderson). And as i said before, I think the scheme needs some tweaking...to my untrained eyes, the scheme was great for the 2003/04 NFL not as great for the 2012/13 NFL. Defense in today's NFL is (to me) about attacking, not reacting - for me I just look at the style of defense that give TFB trouble (as he is the measuring stick for NFL QBs). If it gives TFB and this offense trouble, then it is doing something right.

Just my 2 cents.

D

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

I just don't see anything that's great about Hankins. He's OK at everything required of him but excels at nothing. At least with Jesse Williams, he's exceptional at taking on blockers - I worry that Hankins will offer nothing in the passing game and wash out in the running game. And I'm with you on Hunt - love his length and athleticism but have seen nothing which suggests he'd be a particularly good prospect.

I agree with Hankins, but disagree about Hunt. He is raw and still developing, but found time to set an NCAA record for career blocked kicks---with 17! That's about one every third game. He works extremely hard and was absolutely dominant in their bowl win over Fresno State---not a terrific o-line but one that allowed 22 sacks in 480 attempts, and he completly wrecked them. His size/strength ratio is nearly unprecedented at his position, and he is going to tear up the combine (which is actually going to work against the Pats taking him).

His productivity has gone up each year and he has been a force in both bowl games, which means he puts in the prep work needed. I can see Hunt being a force by year two in the NFL, and would love if the Pats selected him.

 

[manxman2601]

I agree with Hankins, but disagree about Hunt. He is raw and still developing, but found time to set an NCAA record for career blocked kicks---with 17! That's about one every third game. He works extremely hard and was absolutely dominant in their bowl win over Fresno State---not a terrific o-line but one that allowed 22 sacks in 480 attempts, and he completly wrecked them. His size/strength ratio is nearly unprecedented at his position, and he is going to tear up the combine (which is actually going to work against the Pats taking him).

His productivity has gone up each year and he has been a force in both bowl games, which means he puts in the prep work needed. I can see Hunt being a force by year two in the NFL, and would love if the Pats selected him.

Trouble is, he's going to be 26 as a rookie which means he'll likely start declining fairly early in his second contract.

Good defense of him though

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

Trouble is, he's going to be 26 as a rookie which means he'll likely start declining fairly early in his second contract.

Good defense of him though

That is a good point, I was trying to find his age and was hoping it was under 25. Vollmer was a 25 year old rookie, and Kaczur was older too, so it's not unprecedented for the Pats to go that route, although first round may scare them. Hopefully it scares off everyone else too!

 

[DaBruinz]

Wilfork75 - Thanks for posting this thread. I can understand where you are coming from with it and having done some more research on my own I can see where this could be a step towards the 3-4 since many of the players are the same.

There are plenty of questions about this team for next year regardless of which way they line up.

Such as:
1) Is Armstead a 5Tech type of guy or is 3Tech? If he's only a 3T (lining up between Jones and Wilfork) then who plays the 5T?

2) Who is the coverage LBer? Dane Fletcher? Hightower? A draft pick? A free agent like Ellerbe?

 

[Wilfork#75]

Wilfork75 - Thanks for posting this thread. I can understand where you are coming from with it and having done some more research on my own I can see where this could be a step towards the 3-4 since many of the players are the same.

There are plenty of questions about this team for next year regardless of which way they line up.

Such as:
1) Is Armstead a 5Tech type of guy or is 3Tech? If he's only a 3T (lining up between Jones and Wilfork) then who plays the 5T?

2) Who is the coverage LBer? Dane Fletcher? Hightower? A draft pick? A free agent like Ellerbe?

I see Armstead as a purely 3-tech in this type of base defense because I would prefer a big, monster 5-tech like Red Bryant. I know some people think he could do it and would like to see a bit more explosiveness and pass rush ability out of the position, so its just an opinion there. I prefer the monster 5-tech because it is absolutely crucial to maintain gap control over the B&C gaps on the strong side, otherwise the SLB won't be able to bring pressure because it creates an escape route for the RB (or QB). If the 5-tech can absolutely dominate those gaps, the SLB (Hightower, Ninko) can then become much more aggressive and potentially dominant as pass rushers against TE's and RB's.

The big issue though is I don't think we have that guy on the team right now. I think Wilfork can do it, but moving him there would just open a hole at NT (where I think Love is better suited as a backup not a starter). One good thing about this position though is I think these types of players have become extremely undervalued in the NFL because they won't put up big numbers and aren't flashy. I think the two guys that fit this role the best are Jonathan Hankins (late 1st round) and Jessie Williams (2nd round). Williams is a monster run stuffer and I think could fill this role well, but I believe Hankins is the better athlete, has better lateral agility and higher upside as a pass rusher if he can learn to use his hands better.

In terms of coverage LBer, I think Fletcher will be a big addition to the 2013 defense and allow us to get Spikes off the field a bit more. I also wouldn't mind adding someone through the draft with some upside in that area (I'm really intrigued by Ty Powell). But overall I'm not as concerned with the position as some others are. I think if we do play predominantly cover-1, we can use our SS much more in man coverage against TE's instead of LBers. Thats why I really like TJ McDonald, because he has the size, athleticism and skills to match up with TE's man to man. Its also why I would be really intrigued with Adrian Wilson if he were to become available. At 6'3" 230lbs he has the size and athleticism to not only match up in coverage, but play in the box if they run the ball. So I would focus on Safeties that can play in the box more than LBers that can cover. I think that would also offer a different dimension in the pass rush, adding more speed and exotic blitzes to our defensive playbook.

 

[VJCPatriot]

My problem with the Seattle 4-3 Under is that it creates even less pressure on the QB than our system does.

Seattle sack totals:

2011 - 38
2012 - 41 (bear in mind this includes that bizarre GB game)

New England

2011 - 57
2012 - 41

If we're a fan base constantly clamouring for pass rush, imagine what we'd be like with the 4-3 under.


However, that was an excellent post, well thought out and well put together.

Your numbers are way OFF on the sack totals.

2012 Pats D had 37 sacks while our OL held opposing teams to 27 sacks
New England Patriots 2012 Statistics - Team and Player Stats - ESPN

2011 Pads D had 40 sacks while our offense only allowed 32 sacks
New England Patriots 2011 Statistics - Team and Player Stats - ESPN

Our defensive pressure is not nearly as prolific as you state. I don't even think the Pats D has ever reached the 57 mark in their entire history.

 

[manxman2601]

Your numbers are way OFF on the sack totals.

2012 Pats D had 37 sacks while our OL held opposing teams to 27 sacks
New England Patriots 2012 Statistics - Team and Player Stats - ESPN

2011 Pads D had 40 sacks while our offense only allowed 32 sacks
New England Patriots 2011 Statistics - Team and Player Stats - ESPN

Our defensive pressure is not nearly as prolific as you state. I don't even think the Pats D has ever reached the 57 mark in their entire history.

I used PFF and didn't take in to account that they combined regular and post seasons. Ehh!

 

[Thunderkyss]

I don't look at this scheme as trying to 'fix' anything, I simply think the techniques, style of play and defensive philosophy put this team in the best situation to succeed.

When in the Over 4-3, the strength of the defense is on the offense's strong side. With a simple shift to the Under 4-3, the strength of the defense moves to the weak side. To get from the Over formation to the Under, simply shift the defensive tackles over one spot so that they are now over the center and the weak-side guard. The linebacker playing the gap between the weak-side tackle and end then shifts to the gap created between the strong-side tackle and end.

Forgive me if this has been brought up already. The 4-3 over/under is not a scheme. It's an formation variant, like the split I on offense. Most defenses shift into & out of the over/under depending on the situation.

This is a pretty decent site, breaking down the player responsibility.

I love the idea of isolating our two most athletic and disruptive defensive lineman 1 on 1.

Wade Phillips uses this thinking when scheming his 3-4. Most 3-4's are two gap systems where the three DLmen are each responsible for 2 gaps. Wade uses 3-4 personnel with 4-3 responsibilities. Jj Watt plays the 5 tech on the strong side. Our NT shades to the strong side (normally) Antonio Smith plays the UT on the weakside & Barwin plays the 5 on the weakside (LEO) even though he stands & we call him an OLB.

This does present some rather large gaps & increased responsibilities on the ILBs to stop the run. We get gashed from time to time, but overall, not too bad.