Scott Pioli was the problem

[AzPatsFan]

Scott and Bill were a Yin and Yang that worked amazingly well together. Please let's not reinvent the past. It was fantastic. Without the injury to Brady they might have made it to at least one more Super Bowl.
I believe (although I have nothing to support it) that of the two Scott was the one who would say OK - Let's take a deep breath before we ..."
There is no one to say that to Bill now. The Pats are on a bus driven by a Maverick with no brakeman.
I say enjoy the ride. The caution is - some great man become characterizations of themselves. They "play" themselves rather than "be" themselves. Which will Bill become without the "calming" influence of Scott? Don't know. But it will be fun to watch.

Earnie Adams serves that purpose. And I suspect Floyd Reese will be listened to as well, and has the cojones to offer his two cents. But it will indeed be fun to watch, as it has been for two drafts now.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I challenge you to find ANY team that went the decade without bombing a draft, or any team that got 3 consistent players out of every draft this decade.

As fans, we've developed delusional expectations regarding the draft after an uncommonly incredible run of drafts. The Patriots deserve all the credit in the world for due diligence in scouting and for recognizing fits into their system, but they got way lucky in the process. Belichick himself would admit that luck and unpredictability play as much a role in the game as talent. All you can do is be prepared as possible.

You can't blame Pioli for whiffing on Chad Jackson or Bethel Johnson without crediting him for Asante Samuel or David Givens.

Y'all forget the other premium picks who were "failures" in the draft. Brock and Klemm. Both can be attributed to injuries, as well as Chad Jackson, to a degree.

Now that Brace and Wheately seem to be redeeming themselves, it has been awhile. The mythical "bad 2006" featured a 4th rounder and a few 5-7 picks. The Pats were busy patching to turn contenders into SB champs. I have no complaint.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

For what it's worth, Pioli had an excellent draft for the chiefs last year:

Eric Berry (S)

Tony Moeki (TE)

Dexter Mcluster (RB)

Jon Asamoah (G)

 

[BritPat]

For what it's worth, Pioli had an excellent draft for the chiefs last year:

Eric Berry (S)

Tony Moeki (TE)

Dexter Mcluster (RB)

Jon Asamoah (G)

I would have been delighted had the Pats taken all four of those, especially the latter who is a typical Pats O-lineman.

 

[Marqui]

For what it's worth, Pioli had an excellent draft for the chiefs last year:

Eric Berry (S)

Tony Moeki (TE)

Dexter Mcluster (RB)

Jon Asamoah (G)

At this point, how do you know all those guys will be "excellent" NFL players?

 

[SHOWTIME15]

At this point, how do you know all those guys will be "excellent" NFL players?

i don't, but these are all good players and they are saying they should contribute. it's the same thing with our draftees - we have no idea how brandon spikes, etc, will do but all things are pointing to a successful 2010 draft.

 

[Coach42]

I think it was probably a case of the relationship between Pioli and B had run its course. I think in any business situation the addition of new blood from time to time can improve results. However I wouldn't be so quick to heap praise on Reese, he supposedly only handles the contract side of the business. Licht and Caserio are in charge of the roster.

 

[pdangle]

I wouldn't say Pioli was ever a "Problem", but since his departure, IMO, BB has been much more aggressive on draft day. He seems much more willing to trade down, even multiple times, combine picks to target players, take fliers on risky players (either with character issues or with injuries), use his job security to exploit the win-it-now attitude of other teams, and so on.

I think Pioli might have been somewhat of a buffer to BB's grand draft vision. And the old saying "Too many cooks spoil the broth" may have some truth here. If you want to draft aggressively/progressively you need go balls out, and a buffer -so to speak- could hurt the strategy. Again I speak philosophically, and just from what I have observed that last couple drafts. Who really knows what goes on in the war rooms.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

Right now, Pioli's got a talent depleted team, and he's needed to keep the high picks.

That's one way to look at it but the other way is that since there are so many critical needs it would be better to trade down and stockpile picks to plug various holes. An interesting question but of course SP could not trade out of 3.

 

[FredFromDartmouth]

I wouldn't say Pioli was ever a "Problem", but since his departure, IMO, BB has been much more aggressive on draft day. He seems much more willing to trade down, even multiple times, combine picks to target players, take fliers on risky players (either with character issues or with injuries), use his job security to exploit the win-it-now attitude of other teams, and so on.

I think Pioli might have been somewhat of a buffer to BB's grand draft vision. And the old saying "Too many cooks spoil the broth" may have some truth here. If you want to draft aggressively/progressively you need go balls out, and a buffer -so to speak- could hurt the strategy. Again I speak philosophically, and just from what I have observed that last couple drafts. Who really knows what goes on in the war rooms.

This is very well stated. I especially like the "use his job security to exploit the win-it-now attitude of other teams". It is truly amazing that every year teams will pony up to picks to Bill and mortgage the future gambling on a single guy in a multi-player sport. There seems to be no shortage of suckers ready to do this.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

We often think of coaches and GMs in terms of how they start their careers, but rarely do we acknowledge their growth/changes over the years. Just like players, talent evaluators also gain experience and mature, and sometimes get worse.

For the BB/Pioli team, they did quite well early on. From 2006 to 2008, they seemed to do weird things in the draft that they hadn't before. Maroney is the only RB they've drafted in the first two rounds. Kevin O'Connell was the highest draft pick spent on a QB. They blew a few picks on guys who didn't seem to care too much about football (Chad Jackson, Kareem Brown), and when you compare that 3-year period to the past few years, or even the early years, they look quite different, not just in results but the type of guys they targeted.

You also have to look at who else was involved from 2006 to 2008, it wasn't just Belichick and Pioli. Weiss and Crennel weren't there anymore and they used to give input on draft picks. There were different coordinators who had input/influence on the draft picks those 2006-2008 seasons.

From 2009 onward you had Caserio in a bigger role, plus Floyd Reese, not to mention a totally different structure with the coordinators.

There's good evidence to suggest that 2009-now has had more of a Belichick imprint on it than in preceding years.

Some other poster claimed that the 2006 poor draft was a myth. Here is who they drafted, it was the worst under Belichick:
1 21 (21) Laurence Maroney, RB, Minnesota
2 4-d (36) Chad Jackson, WR, Florida
3 22 (86) David Thomas, TE, Texas
4 9-b (106) Garret Mills, TE, Tulsa
4 21 (118) Stephen Gostkowski, K, Memphis
5 3-c (136) Ryan O'Callaghan , OT, California
6 22-* (191) Jeremy Mincey, OL/DE, Florida
6 36-* (205) Dan Stevenson, OL, Notre Dame
6 37 (206) Le Kevin Smith, NT, Nebraska
7 21 (209) Willie Andrews, CB/S, Baylor

 

[patchick]

Some other poster claimed that the 2006 poor draft was a myth. Here is who they drafted, it was the worst under Belichick

I don't think anybody questions the lousiness of the 2006 draft -- it was about 2007, where they traded out for Moss, Welker and future picks. If you only look at the drafted players, it was lousy. If you look at the total value gained with draft currency, it was pretty dandy. Perfect argument fodder.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I don't think anybody questions the lousiness of the 2006 draft -- it was about 2007, where they traded out for Moss, Welker and future picks. If you only look at the drafted players, it was lousy. If you look at the total value gained with draft currency, it was pretty dandy. Perfect argument fodder.

I'll have to go back and check if that was the case on that post, since it seems pretty clear that the 2006 draft class was absolutely pathetic and filled with out of character decisions for a Belichick draft.

As for the 2007 draft, I wouldn't be surprised if Belichick didn't trust the people around him after what happened in the 2006 draft, which is why he made so many draft trades for players he knew about.

 

[goheels22002]

I like the way some morons throw former Patriots and executives under the bus once they are gone...pathetic and ******ed - stop this sh!t please

Waiting for the idiots who are going to post a thread about "glad we got rid of Dimitroff,he sucked"

Some of you really need to get a grasp...not one of this years rookies has played a meaningful down in a regular season game and already some are jumping the gun and crowning this years draft a gift of god....
What the hell is wrong with some of you? - can't you wait a few REAL REGULAR SEASON weeks before seeing what these guys REALLY have as an NFL player?

This isn't about throwing former Patriots executives under the bus. It's about throwing Bill Parcells' son-in-law under the bus.

Just wondering. What medical school did you attend to get your psychiatry degree so that you could diagnose which among us are "******ed," "morons," and "idiots?" And all this time my therapist has been treating me for being an imbecile...

 

[DropKickFlutie]

This isn't about throwing former Patriots' executives under the bus. It's about throwing Bill Parcell's son-in-law under the bus.

Which makes zero sense, because the drafts were never just Belichick and Pioli. The coaching staff and personnel men have changed over the years as well, and the quality of information used to make decisions was arguably very different from year to year.

The crappy drafts were basically from 2005-2008. Pioli was here for several great drafts before those years ever happened.

 

[goheels22002]

Interesting point, in that the last two drafts sure seem like they both will be very good at a minimum. There may be something to that. Of course, this could be a Post Hoc Ergo Procter Hoc situation, where we assume before the fact therefore because of the fact. May or may not be so.

Wow. "Post Hoc Ergo Procter Hoc?" It was more like a "Spam, Sausage, Cheese, Spam, Eggs, and Spam" situation, where we assume the Vikings like Spam because of the Spam.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I think everyone has gone nuts. Two pre-season games and everyone is thinks the pats have actually done something. Who the heck knows how these guys will turn out, but I don't think these two games tell us anything.

I agree. I am not saying the rooks are not good, but there seems to be too much enthusiasm over a couple of scrimmages.

 

[AzPatsFan]

You also have to look at who else was involved from 2006 to 2008, it wasn't just Belichick and Pioli. Weiss and Crennel weren't there anymore and they used to give input on draft picks. There were different coordinators who had input/influence on the draft picks those 2006-2008 seasons.

From 2009 onward you had Caserio in a bigger role, plus Floyd Reese, not to mention a totally different structure with the coordinators.

There's good evidence to suggest that 2009-now has had more of a Belichick imprint on it than in preceding years.

Some other poster claimed that the 2006 poor draft was a myth. Here is who they drafted, it was the worst under Belichick:
1 21 (21) Laurence Maroney, RB, Minnesota
2 4-d (36) Chad Jackson, WR, Florida
3 22 (86) David Thomas, TE, Texas
4 9-b (106) Garret Mills, TE, Tulsa
4 21 (118) Stephen Gostkowski, K, Memphis
5 3-c (136) Ryan O'Callaghan , OT, California
6 22-* (191) Jeremy Mincey, OL/DE, Florida
6 36-* (205) Dan Stevenson, OL, Notre Dame
6 37 (206) Le Kevin Smith, NT, Nebraska
7 21 (209) Willie Andrews, CB/S, Baylor

Yah but... yeah But... The Draft produced 7 out of the 8 who made it, and are still in the league somewhere.

Only Mincey,and Stevenson were draft failures per se.
Willie Andrew's off the field problems ruined his career.
The two good ones are Maroney and Gostkowski here; and Thomas is a starting TE for the Super Bowl Champions and valued.
Mills, for a reserve H-back caused a furor with Childress and the Vikes, Chad is still fooling around in Buffalo.
O'Callaghan is the incumbent starter at RT for KC, and I've lost track of where LeKevin is, still Cleveland?

 

[patsfan-1982]

You also have to look at who else was involved from 2006 to 2008, it wasn't just Belichick and Pioli. Weiss and Crennel weren't there anymore and they used to give input on draft picks. There were different coordinators who had input/influence on the draft picks those 2006-2008 seasons.

From 2009 onward you had Caserio in a bigger role, plus Floyd Reese, not to mention a totally different structure with the coordinators.

There's good evidence to suggest that 2009-now has had more of a Belichick imprint on it than in preceding years.

Some other poster claimed that the 2006 poor draft was a myth. Here is who they drafted, it was the worst under Belichick:
1 21 (21) Laurence Maroney, RB, Minnesota
2 4-d (36) Chad Jackson, WR, Florida
3 22 (86) David Thomas, TE, Texas
4 9-b (106) Garret Mills, TE, Tulsa
4 21 (118) Stephen Gostkowski, K, Memphis
5 3-c (136) Ryan O'Callaghan , OT, California
6 22-* (191) Jeremy Mincey, OL/DE, Florida
6 36-* (205) Dan Stevenson, OL, Notre Dame
6 37 (206) Le Kevin Smith, NT, Nebraska
7 21 (209) Willie Andrews, CB/S, Baylor

Laurence Maroney, has been the pats leading rusher and he has never got 200 att in a season
Chad Jackson, bust
David Thomas, will be a big part of the saints offense this year he did not make it with the pats cause he can't block
Garret Mills, is still a ST player with the vikings
Stephen Gostkowski, all pro K and one of the best in the NFL
Ryan O'Callaghan, a starting OT for KC
Jeremy Mincey, a ST player and backup DE for the jags
Dan Stevenson, out of the NFL a bust but only a 6th round pick
Le Kevin Smith, backup DE for denver
Willie Andrews, out of the NFL

thats realy not a bad draft IMO since 2006 the pats record is 49-15 so that mean they still had some pretty good talent on the team so a lot of dose late round picks were just not going to make the team


i will say this about the pats drafts in any year im not a big fan of the way they pass up good players to trade down for more dept... but i think we can all agree that other then not finding a star OLB the pats drafts havs all been pretty good

 

[convertedpatsfan]

You also have to look at who else was involved from 2006 to 2008, it wasn't just Belichick and Pioli. Weiss and Crennel weren't there anymore and they used to give input on draft picks. There were different coordinators who had input/influence on the draft picks those 2006-2008 seasons.

From 2009 onward you had Caserio in a bigger role, plus Floyd Reese, not to mention a totally different structure with the coordinators.

There's good evidence to suggest that 2009-now has had more of a Belichick imprint on it than in preceding years.

Some other poster claimed that the 2006 poor draft was a myth. Here is who they drafted, it was the worst under Belichick:
1 21 (21) Laurence Maroney, RB, Minnesota
2 4-d (36) Chad Jackson, WR, Florida
3 22 (86) David Thomas, TE, Texas
4 9-b (106) Garret Mills, TE, Tulsa
4 21 (118) Stephen Gostkowski, K, Memphis
5 3-c (136) Ryan O'Callaghan , OT, California
6 22-* (191) Jeremy Mincey, OL/DE, Florida
6 36-* (205) Dan Stevenson, OL, Notre Dame
6 37 (206) Le Kevin Smith, NT, Nebraska
7 21 (209) Willie Andrews, CB/S, Baylor

I agree 100%. It's impossible to say Pioli was the problem because there are so many others involved in the decision making. From the scouts to the coordinators, you can't pin it on one or two people only.

Having said that much, that 2006 draft was awful for us. And 2007 was pretty bad too. As patchick already pointed out, we got some great value in trades that season, but that doesn't mean we couldn't have hit on a few more of those picks

I thought I read that McDaniel was the guy leading the charge behind the KOC pick. Again, hard to know for certain without being in the war room, but if that's true, then perhaps he wasn't a great talent evaluator in those first few seasons (or even now depending on how you look at that last Denver draft).

But fair or not, we will judge Pioli by how he does in KC, and how BB does without him. It's too early to say for sure, but I'm not missing him like I thought I would.