Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by goheels22002, Aug 21, 2010.
....and his initials are not SP
well yes, but he's going with advice of some people and may be relying on some people. He can't do everything himself.
I think Pioli's draft in KC in 2009 was pretty horrific...I think he's the bum responsible most for our bad drafts. I'm hoping it was him, cause he's gone now, maybe our ddrafts will be better. So far they have been.
I am going to have to side with SanAngeloState here. Until proven otherwise Pioli has to be on the bum side of the ledger. Two fantastic drafts since he left by the Patiots and two uninspiring (at best) drafts for KC.
You guys are a bunch of timid old ladies not daring to insult anyone and couching any statement with a squishy cushion of wishy-washy modifiers. Is this a political correctness thing? Should we call Pioli "Draft-Challenged"?
Maybe SP's 2009 drafts will work out well but it does not look good so far. Sure some players take years to develop but that there are a ton of players who step right in the first year.
We will know for sure in a few years but right now Pioli is not looking good.
That post is sarcastic, right?
Having a fantastic draft is a combination of hard work and luck. Of course, conventional wisdom says that we should wait 3 years before (near) final pronouncement on a draft class, but certainly there are significant indications so far. But this post (as well as many others) is simply off the wall.
Are you saying that Pioli was a bad influence simply because you are extremely optimistic about how well the Patriots drafted in '09 and '10? And that you expect that the Patriots will continue to have one of the top 3 draft classes out of 32 NFL teams as long as Pioli isn't around to drag them down? And this is based on how poorly previous draft classes have done during the previous years when Pioli was an important part of the decision making process?
A little bit of sense either looking at players or looking at success on the field shows that the Patriots had a lot of success in the draft since 2000. BB has often shared how much he appreciates and admires Pioli as well as vice versa. BB agreed on every pick that was made (unless you believe that both Pioli and BB have consistently lied on this over many years - which it's starting to sound like some of you believe because it fits your newly defined view of the world).
Let's get back to reality, folks. Pioli is not a bum because he moved on to another team and BB is not a genius because he still wears the Patriot colors (grey with cut off sleeves ). Pioli was a very significant contributor to a team that is now hailed as the team of the decade and the BB/Pioli team was right significantly more often than they were wrong which, in the NFL, gives you the opportunity to be a great team.
Here's one thing I believe we really can say: the Pats' legendary strategic movement up and down the draft board, and the stockpiling of picks, were all Belichick.
Heading into the 2009 draft -- even after the Cassel trade -- KC had more draft firepower than NE. Pioli used that ammo to draft 7 players, plus traded away a 2010 pick to grab an 8th. Belichick used his 2009 picks to draft 12 players, plus traded for 2010 picks that became Rob Gronkowski, Brandon Spikes and Zoltan Mesko.
In 2010, KC made multiple trades involving vets for picks, and one trade packaging multiple picks to move up. They did not trade down once, nor did they acquire any future picks. NE moved up and down the board like maniacs, and came away with an extra 2nd-rounder in 2011. Totals: KC again selected 7 players and NE 12.
That's a HUGE strategic difference that isn't about luck and doesn't take 3 years to assess. In 2 drafts widely regarded as deep with talent, Belichick choose to load up on value picks (7 2nd-rounders in 2 years!). Pioli, despite having a weak roster across the board, opted to pick and choose and ended up with 15 draft picks vs. BB's 25.
OK OK. I used a bit of hyperbole; I will never be part of the hive mind here. Someone has to state (respectfully) the contrary view.
SP's early drafts with the Patriots were solid but later they seemed to slip.
There is a striking difference in the draft fortunes of the two teams since SP left. It is such a radical difference it is hard to attribute it all to SP. There must be another factor and that must be Nick Caserio or Floyd Reese.
Personally I don't buy the 3 year rule. Maybe for some players but with most good players you know right away. And for the elite players...well BB said it best when he noted that it was pretty obvious from day one of training camp that Lawrence Taylor and Richard Seymore were special.
I think it is pretty obvious that the Patriots hit home runs with Hernandez, McCourty, and Spikes...especially McCourty. Zoltan and Price also look good. Cunningham is the big question mark but not because of poor production.
Yup. And this year they made all three second-round picks (in slightly different positions) PLUS added a second for next year.
There are plenty of people who speak the "contrary view" but they actually do so with solid reasoning and actual facts. Something you've had a hard time understanding.
You do realize that the drafts were not JUST Pioli. They were a combination of Pioli and Belichick, as well as the scouts and coaches that were part of the team. Not to mention the talent or lack there of in a particular draft (2007) .
You and the other dunderheads seem to forget that Pioli is now dealing with Todd Haley and the Scouts he has there in KC. It's not a one man show like it might have been in the 80's and 90s.
There are always exceptions to the rule. Both positive and negative. But BB as well as most every GM/HC/Personnel man have gone on record stating that you can't judge a draft for until after the 3rd year. And, I'll take a guy with 5 SB Rings over a you any day..
You think that after 2 pre-season games? They haven't even had REAL GAME experience yet.
As Patchick wrote, it's clear that the moving up and down the draft board, and stockpiling picks in future drafts, was Belichick and not Pioli.
However, you can't simply say the poor drafts were because of Pioli. Belichick and Pioli were constants from 2000-2008, yet the drafts ranged from exceptional to very poor. You could point to other factors, like Dimitroff leaving after 2004, or maybe Pees/McDaniels were poor draft evaluators, or maybe Caserio and Reese are much better than whoever was doing that part of evaluation before them.
The only person left over from that terrible 2006 draft is Belichick - everyone else around him is different now, so it's hard to say who was to blame for that crappy draft.
There's a legitimate reason for this, and it's talent-based. I'm not sure that Pioli will change his style once he gets more talent on his team, but it's certainly possible.
2001: picking at #6, Patriots stayed there and took Seymour
traded up for Light
2002: Patriots traded up for Graham
2003: traded up for Warren
traded up for Wilson
traded up for Johnson
2004: Wilfork is the first high round trade down, a 2 pick drop down (from 19 to 21)
It was only after the Patriots had talent from picking up high that the real two-way maneuvering with the high round picks kicked into high gear. Right now, Pioli's got a talent depleted team, and he's needed to keep the high picks. That was further complicated last year, when he was unable to find someone to trade with for the #3 overall pick (and who can blame the other teams, given how slowly the 2009 draft players at the top have started their careers?).
I don't know what the future holds for Pioli's pick trading, but he's started out doing what the Patriots did in the early days under the BB/Pioli regime.
Deus, this isn't just about the top picks. Even back in 2001 the Patriots made 4 draft-day trades, including 2 trades down to acquire extra picks. They traded down or into the next draft every single year. In 2 seasons with KC, Pioli has made no such moves.
To be fair, Pioli did that to himself. He hired Todd Haley to be the Chiefs head coach, did he not? Seems like a poor decision to me thus far. Haley has no business coaching an NFL team.
Yes, that's another example of SP not being all that great. Thanks for that. Apparently he was the deadweight of the duo.
In 2001, the Patriots traded down and picked Arther Love and Owen Pochman. I don't recall any other trade down. However, the 2000 draft is much more like Pioli's 2009 draft, in that the change at the top came late enough that there wasn't time to get the new personnel in place. In that season, the Patriots did not make any such moves. I didn't bring up 2000 in the earlier post because the Patriots didn't have a first round pick and I was focusing on that top spot most. It essentially breaks down to one more trade down in 2 years, and the basics of trading up ruling the day for several seasons.
As I noted, I don't know what Pioli will do in the future. He may not be a wheeler/dealer in the vein of Belichick and, seemingly McDaniels. On the other hand, he may just be taking the "I need talent first" approach that Belichick seems to have done in New England.
Pioli/Haley inherited what might have been the most talent depleted team in the NFL and doubled its win total while transitioning with a new coaching staff, trading away Gonzalez for a future pick, switching from the 4-3 to the 3-4 and overcoming the firing of the O.C. just before the start of the season.
I don't know if Haley will work out as a head coach, but he seems to have gotten off to a pretty good start.
Scott and Bill were a Yin and Yang that worked amazingly well together. Please let's not reinvent the past. It was fantastic. Without the injury to Brady they might have made it to at least one more Super Bowl.
I believe (although I have nothing to support it) that of the two Scott was the one who would say OK - Let's take a deep breath before we ..."
There is no one to say that to Bill now. The Pats are on a bus driven by a Maverick with no brakeman.
I say enjoy the ride. The caution is - some great man become characterizations of themselves. They "play" themselves rather than "be" themselves. Which will Bill become without the "calming" influence of Scott? Don't know. But it will be fun to watch.
We often think of coaches and GMs in terms of how they start their careers, but rarely do we acknowledge their growth/changes over the years. Just like players, talent evaluators also gain experience and mature, and sometimes get worse.
For the BB/Pioli team, they did quite well early on. From 2006 to 2008, they seemed to do weird things in the draft that they hadn't before. Maroney is the only RB they've drafted in the first two rounds. Kevin O'Connell was the highest draft pick spent on a QB. They blew a few picks on guys who didn't seem to care too much about football (Chad Jackson, Kareem Brown), and when you compare that 3-year period to the past few years, or even the early years, they look quite different, not just in results but the type of guys they targeted.
I'm not making excuses for the guys, but it feels like BB has learned from that. He's stock-piling picks, he's going after players with passion, who are captains and leaders, taking the best player available (the McCourty pick this draft exemplifies that). Pioli seems to have gone the other way, playing very conservatively, not trading down, reaching for players to fit the system like Tyson Jackson.
It is too early to pass full judgment on Pioli, but I thought he'd follow the old way of trading down and stockpiling picks for depth. His team doesn't need just a few big playmakers, but upgrades throughout the entire roster. The early results are not promising for the Chiefs.
Meanwhile, I'm absolutely ecstatic about our drafts since Pioli left. He may not have been the problem, but he's not exactly lighting the world on fire since he left either.
I challenge you to find ANY team that went the decade without bombing a draft, or any team that got 3 consistent players out of every draft this decade.
As fans, we've developed delusional expectations regarding the draft after an uncommonly incredible run of drafts. The Patriots deserve all the credit in the world for due diligence in scouting and for recognizing fits into their system, but they got way lucky in the process. Belichick himself would admit that luck and unpredictability play as much a role in the game as talent. All you can do is be prepared as possible.
You can't blame Pioli for whiffing on Chad Jackson or Bethel Johnson without crediting him for Asante Samuel or David Givens.
Separate names with a comma.