Scheme issues underlie O-Line and pass rush criticisms

[Patriot Missile]

I actually agree to a certain extent. I won't go as far as claim the shotgun is predictable. It's our bread and butter and what we should be using a majority of the time against most teams. But you have to go with what is working at the time until they find a way to stop it.

My problem has been the adjustments by the coaching staff. It was mentioned in an earlier thread and I'm still wondering why the Pats moved away from the 2 TE formation which was destroying the Saints? The lack of mixing it up or mixing it up and then stopping has been a thorn in our side for the last 3 weeks. 24-7 vs Indy and then they go predictable. Clobbering the Jets and then go predictable. 1st quarter vs the Saints moving the ball well and after Brady throws the int, all of a sudden we feel like it's time to run the 2 minute drill?
Not only could of they reduced the amount of points the the Saints scored, they may have actually scored and dictated the pace of the game. Even with the int.

 

[maverick4]

I actually agree to a certain extent. I won't go as far as claim the shotgun is predictable. It's our bread and butter and what we should be using a majority of the time against most teams. But you have to go with what is working at the time until they find a way to stop it.

My problem has been the adjustments by the coaching staff. It was mentioned in an earlier thread and I'm still wondering why the Pats moved away from the 2 TE formation which was destroying the Saints? The lack of mixing it up or mixing it up and then stopping has been a thorn in our side for the last 3 weeks. 24-7 vs Indy and then they go predictable. Clobbering the Jets and then go predictable. 1st quarter vs the Saints moving the ball well and after Brady throws the int, all of a sudden we feel like it's time to run the 2 minute drill?
Not only could of they reduced the amount of points the the Saints scored, they may have actually scored and dictated the pace of the game. Even with the int.

Great post.

My theory on this is as the game goes on, the coordinators influence the game more than in the start of games, which is mostly based on pre-game-planning and film/scouting where Belichick had more input. Belichick can't do 5 things at once; the coordinators are calling the plays.

We start out the game and our pre-game plans are all spot on, our 1st half stats are good, but eventually every week the coordinators revert back to the same predictable things we see and criticize about, and we have these frequent 2nd half struggles.

 

[Rob0729]

So if the offense has a league high rating, then it can do no wrong no matter what???? Nobody will agree with your thinking that the 01 Rams choked because of their defense.

This current Patriot offense averages 27 points per game, yet it's clear they have failed on multiple key occasions which would have won them a few more games. Based on your insane reasoning, just because they have a better league ranking means it's always the other unit's fault, even for this year.

I'm looking at who is failing in the key moments. Just because the offense had a higher league ranking doesn't absolve them when they actually fail in key moments, not just this year but previous years.

Based on your stats and ranking obsession to defend the offense, all the losses this year are on the defense still even when it's blatantly obvious the offense has lost games this year.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth. You biatch and moan about "sexy stats" of the offense and then are quick to pick out sexy stats for the defense to make your point. In one thread, you say that for years the halmark of a Pees led defense is giving up a big play in key moments and in this thread you want to say the defense isn't at falt because they have a sexy PPG average.

I am not stats obsessed, I am wins obsessed. The last few years (well, take 2009 out of the equation), this team has been a Super Bowl contender because of their offense, not their defense. I can look at playoff losses and assign blame where it is deserve than trying to lay the entire blame on one coordinator.

For example, yes, McDaniels called a bad game, but the Pats could have won the game on any one of three plays on the Pats defensive stand. I won't absolve the o-line for playing poorly just to blame the coordinator. You want to give the talent the credit in wins and the OC the blame in losses.

You see that you have trouble getting into discussions at a higher level where I like to discuss things. Wins and losses are never solely on one or two people's feet. There are many things that go into the losses. Your obsession with McDaniels and now Pees and O'Brien doesn't allow to see the forrest through the trees.

 

[maverick4]

Again, you are putting words in my mouth. You biatch and moan about "sexy stats" of the offense and then are quick to pick out sexy stats for the defense to make your point.

I never claimed the defense was dominant or faultless, I simply defended it every time you deceitfully called them below average and threw them under the bus.

Conversely, for you, there can be NO criticism of the offense if it is ranked top 3, which is ludicrous. In 4 years you have never admitted the offense making a mistake, it's always with a lame excuse.

 

[BionicPatriot]

The defense has a good ranking because they handle the ****ty teams, the only dent in their rankins the last 2 years have been when good teams mopped the floor with the defense. I noticed you blamed the offense for the loss against the Colts. That's just insanity.

The Colts had the ball for like 15 minutes yet still moved the ball and put up nearly 20 points. You know why the Colts scored so low last year? The offense dominated TOP, because McDaniels knew to keep the ball away from Peyton.

Sorry, but this defense cannot hold up against big teams in big situations, thats been this teams failure. If they step it up for one last drive in SB42, if Samuel catches the ball, your whole thread looks funny, the people *****ing about we'll never win a ring with Brady/Moss look foolish.

It's not the offense. Yes they get predictable. You would too if your defense put you into that position. But Maverick, are you going to tell me this OL blocked well enough for them toe xcute Monday? Becauyse they didn't. All night Koppen's guy was killing Brady. The Colts offense would look like **** too if we could get to Manning like that.

 

[maverick4]

This recent comment by Brian Urlacher is absolutely relevant to our own team:

In the Yahoo! interview, Urlacher called Cutler "a great player who can take us a long way" and said he still has "faith in him," but he also hates "the way our identity has changed." "We used to establish the run and wear teams down and try not to make mistakes, and we'd rely on our defense to keep us in the game and make big plays to put us in position to win," Urlacher told the Web site. "Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that's the truth."

Jay Cutler of Chicago Bears: No need for Brian Urlacher to apologize - ESPN Chicago

 

[SVN]

Thanks for providing the link. You previously claimed the Saints were regularly getting to Brady with 3 rushers. That link you provided is a segment before the Saints game. Oops.

Even after looking at the clips, they show Brady getting pressured 3 times. Every time the opposing D showed 6-7 players right on the line of scrimmage for confusion, and 2 of those plays were directly attributed to backup Dan Connelly. So... I don't think it proves your point that they need more talent.

Did i say they needmore talent ? iam just saying OL didnt protect. So all your scheme is a waste
yeah i know its before the saints game . there is no oops. And i never claimed anything anywhere. its the same OL and thats what i wanted to point out.if you listen to theiseman he says this will effect our game and it did as he said.

about showing confusion...listen to bb miked up here in the miami game
NFL Videos: Sound FX: Bill Belichick mic'd up
he repeately asks the defense to play press cover and says "go ahead and bluff the blitz".
So your constant assertions that the coaches dont think of all these stuff you think is not correct. BB says the same things you are thinking.

 

[maverick4]

I noticed you blamed the offense for the loss against the Colts.

The offense did lose the game, considering Belichick put the game into the offense's hands and they lost it.

 

[maverick4]

about showing confusion...listen to bb miked up here in the miami game
NFL Videos: Sound FX: Bill Belichick mic'd up
he repeately asks the defense to play press cover and says "go ahead and bluff the blitz".
So your constant assertions that the coaches dont think of all these stuff you think is not correct. BB says the same things you are thinking.

I heard the same clip before. Did you notice his players weren't listening and the play calls were still having them play off???

 

[Deus Irae]

Given that more and more of the league is going to the shotgun, it's pretty clear that "scheme" in the sense of using it, is not the problem. What's predictable is not the play calling. What's predictable is the complaining about play calling by people who don't bother to pay attention to the games. It's not the fault of play calling that Brady threw the interception on the pass to Moss. It wasn't the fault of play calling that the Saints were able to pressure Brady with just 3 man rushes. I have my personal issues with the play calling, but I'm not fool enough to think that it's play calling that's causing these losses.

Sooner or later, people are going to have to stop ignoring the elephant in the room: personnel.

 

[maverick4]

Given that more and more of the league is going to the shotgun, it's pretty clear that "scheme" in the sense of using it, is not the problem. What's predictable is not the play calling. It's not the fault of play calling that Brady threw the interception on the pass to Moss. It wasn't the fault of play calling that the Saints were able to pressure Brady with just 3 man rushes. I'm not fool enough to think that it's play calling that's causing these losses.

Sooner or later, people are going to have to stop ignoring the elephant in the room: personnel.

Could not disagree more with this incoherent list of un-backed fluffy statements. Pretty much every sentence here goes against the evidence.

Continually calling for better talent might work in a sport like baseball, but in a league with a salary cap and highly dependent on strategy, with 70+ resetting play stoppages, even superficial (and false) talent issues are still scheme and play-call issues.

 

[Rob0729]

I never claimed the defense was dominant or faultless, I simply defended it every time you deceitfully called them below average and threw them under the bus.

Conversely, for you, there can be NO criticism of the offense if it is ranked top 3, which is ludicrous. In 4 years you have never admitted the offense making a mistake, it's always with a lame excuse.

I'm not deceitful. I never said the offense could not be blamed for losses. And I have blamed the offense for contributing to losses.

First, when the offense gets up by 2-3 TDs quickly, the defense has an easier time because the opposing offense becomes one dimensional. I can see beyond the numbers and see the defenses over the last few years have not been all that good and benefitted from the offense just like during the Super Bowl years, the offense was helped out by the defense giving them short fields.

Second, I said that the offense didn't play well in the Super Bowl and criticized McDaniels for his inability to figure out a way to counteract the Giants' defense until late in the game (although I blatantly dispute your and other's assessments that he arrogantly refused to do any adjustments). But I also put the responsibility on the players for not executing.

You see you seem to be unable or unwilling to see that in wins and losses as a group effort and that there are more than just one or two key players or coaches who are responsible for that. You seem content to blame every loss on the sitting OC's feet since Weis left and give them none of the credit. I'd rather look at it intelligently and insightfully.

 

[SVN]

I heard the same clip before. Did you notice his players weren't listening and the play calls were still having them play off???

yeah i notice. So who do you blame now ? DC ? OC ? BB or players ?

 

[Rob0729]

The offense did lose the game, considering Belichick put the game into the offense's hands and they lost it.

LOL! Not only did they not convert the 4th and 2. The offense let the Colts score 17 points in the last half of the fourth quarter. O'Brien's coverage schemes couldn't cover Wayne for the life of them.

This is why many people don't take you seriously. This was clearly a loss that has plenty of blame to spread around and you want to put the blame on the offense because Faulk bobbled the ball and still may have gotten the ball if the Pats could have challenged.

To blame the offense for that loss is laughable. Yes, they do deserve a decent size share of the blame pie, but so does the defense and even more so.

 

[maverick4]

DC ? OC ? BB or players ?

I do not blame Belichick in any way, except that I wish he would fire both coordinators and get approval to actually hire quality ones who aren't low cost.

The main point is that Belichick isn't this guy pulling all the strings that everyone thinks, he can't be at 5 places at once. It's clear that he is very involved in pre-game planning, but that this team deviates during games to the same predictable plays.

If you disagree that coordinators have any impact, than why does Mcdaniels get so much credit here? If he had zero influence and was just a robot following specific orders from Belichick for every possible situation, then nobody would say he was a good coordinator.

 

[Rob0729]

This recent comment by Brian Urlacher is absolutely relevant to our own team:



Jay Cutler of Chicago Bears: No need for Brian Urlacher to apologize - ESPN Chicago

I do see a coorelation, but I think it relates to the defense more than the offense. In 2001 - 2004, the Pats were a hard nosed physical defense that was known for their hard hits. They used to hit receivers so hard on plays that they got afraid to catch the ball. That is the biggest culture change for the negative for this team. We have gotten some of that back this year, but not nearly close to what we had in 2004 and before. We used to love watching Rodney slam a WR as he was coming down with the ball forcing it to jar loose. Or Tedy smack a TE coming over the middle.

The Pats' problem over the last few years have been far less that they have become a finesse offense, but they became a finesse defense. Luckily guys like Meriweather have started to lay some wood.

 

[maverick4]

LOL! Not only did they not convert the 4th and 2. The offense let the Colts score 17 points in the last half of the fourth quarter. O'Brien's coverage schemes couldn't cover Wayne for the life of them.

This is why many people don't take you seriously. This was clearly a loss that has plenty of blame to spread around and you want to put the blame on the offense because Faulk bobbled the ball and still may have gotten the ball if the Pats could have challenged.

To blame the offense for that loss is laughable. Yes, they do deserve a decent size share of the blame pie, but so does the defense and even more so.

Not sure if your 'defend the offense at all costs' schtick rings with many people here anymore. You're so biased you'll even defend when Bill O'Brien clearly lost this team games.

The same lame game you play every time is to blame the defense since losses always involve the winning opposing team scoring the last points. You love to somehow use this to ALWAYS pin the blame on the defense, which is absurd. Under this ******ed reasoning, the offense is never at fault.

You are incapable of naming even one incident when an offense lost a game, aren't you.

 

[maverick4]

I do see a coorelation, but I think it relates to the defense more than the offense. In 2001 - 2004, the Pats were a hard nosed physical defense that was known for their hard hits. They used to hit receivers so hard on plays that they got afraid to catch the ball. That is the biggest culture change for the negative for this team. We have gotten some of that back this year, but not nearly close to what we had in 2004 and before. We used to love watching Rodney slam a WR as he was coming down with the ball forcing it to jar loose. Or Tedy smack a TE coming over the middle.

The Pats' problem over the last few years have been far less that they have become a finesse offense, but they became a finesse defense. Luckily guys like Meriweather have started to lay some wood.

Urlacher's comments were about the Bears offense and the addition of Cutler, and somehow you take this as a spin/attack on the defense?

Wow, you are DELUSIONAL.

 

[Rob0729]

I do not blame Belichick in any way, except that I wish he would fire both coordinators and get approval to actually hire quality ones who aren't low cost.

The main point is that Belichick isn't this guy pulling all the strings that everyone thinks. It's clear that he is very involved in pre-game planning, but that this team deviates during games to the same predictable plays.

If you disagree that coordinators have any impact, than why does Mcdaniels get so much credit here? If he had zero influence and was just a robot following specific orders from Belichick for every possible situation, then nobody would say he was a good coordinator.

When the team struggles, it is primarily the head coach's fault. How can you not blame Belichick when the team struggles especially since he is not only the head coach, but also the GM.

The coordinators deserve a lot of the credit and blame, but ultimately everything falls on Belichick. He is responsible to make sure the coordinators do their job correctly or step in and take control (like he reportedly did with Mangini in 2005). He is responsible to make sure they have the right players to execute the offense and defense on the team and playing.

If Belichick has no control over the offense or defense, why does he even go to the games? He should just sit in the owner box with Kraft.

 

[BradyFTW!]

This recent comment by Brian Urlacher is absolutely relevant to our own team:



Jay Cutler of Chicago Bears: No need for Brian Urlacher to apologize - ESPN Chicago

How the hell is that relevant? The problem with the bears is that Jay Cutler isn't a very good QB and doesn't take care of the ball. Next time Brady throws 5 INTs in a game, you might almost sort of have a point.