Schefter on WEEI - McDaniels could be hottest coaching candidate next offseason

[cstjohn17]

I hate the derogatory references to BB's tenure in Cleveland. Granted it wasn't
his finest hour but suffice it to say his success there wasn't chopped liver either.

Stop being an apologizing homer, his record is his record. My math isn't good but he was 36 wins out of 80 games.

Maybe he need some seasoning, look at the polished & friendly person he has become. I bet when he left the NY writers were saying that he should have stayed with Parcells for a couple more years to gain 'seasoning', and I am sure they chuckled when he had four losing seasons out of five. BB took advantage of his stature as a very good coordinator and turned it into a HC position (just like Mangini).

It didn't work out, he re-grouped and then was able to pick the better of two positions once he re-established himself. When Mangini gets fired he will have to do the same thing, become a head coach in college or a coordinator for Josh McDaniel. Either way in 5 years he will get another shot at an NFL job.

 

[The Boston Patriot]

Stop being an apologizing homer, his record is his record. My math isn't good but he was 36 wins out of 80 games.

Maybe he need some seasoning, look at the polished & friendly person he has become. I bet when he left the NY writers were saying that he should have stayed with Parcells for a couple more years to gain 'seasoning', and I am sure they chuckled when he had four losing seasons out of five. BB took advantage of his stature as a very good coordinator and turned it into a HC position (just like Mangini).

It didn't work out, he re-grouped and then was able to pick the better of two positions once he re-established himself. When Mangini gets fired he will have to do the same thing, become a head coach in college or a coordinator for Josh McDaniel. Either way in 5 years he will get another shot at an NFL job.

Examine his record instead of giving me the won-loss crap. Until Modell blew
up the team he had improved it every year culminating in a WC appearance
where he trashed the mighty Drew. He started with garbage and in his fourth
year he was in the playoffs and won a game. You need to get rid of the
attitude. I am defending his record with another team so how is that being a
homer? God, some people on this site are pathetic and you are one of them.

 

[Rob0729]

Just one question to answer your question:

When was the last time you heard a defensive coordinator blame injury or the lack of personnel on poor performance?

They don't. They adapt and innovate covering up deficiencies with their playcalling. That's what sets McDaniels apart from a typical Patriots coordinator.

Or do you really think his success with Moss, Brady, Stallworth, and Welker proves he's a good OC? Do you think he'd be as successful with a mediocre QB and mediocre WRs? Because chances are that's what he's walking into.

The offense's #7 ranking was due in part to the fact that they completed a ton of short passes. By giving up on the long game McDaniels accepted the fact that Brady would be under intense pressure and that DBs would play the line of scrimage and double cover Watson and Caldwell.

I think others might not have given up so easily. And if you really want a stat, look at the YPC for our "deepest" deep threat last year - Ben Watson at 13.1 ypc.

If some feel the OC bears no responsibility for that, like I said, they're entitled to their opinion. Of course, these are many of the same people who felt that there was no need for an upgrade at WR last season too.

Huh? Ummm.... I have never heard McDaniels ever blame the players for lack of production of the offense. I have heard fans do it, but I have heard fans blame players for our defensive problems too.

Most of the first half of 2005, our poor defensive performance was blamed on Chad Brown and Monty Beisel. Steve Martin and a few other players were directly blamed for our inability to stop the run in 2002. So 2005 was the last time I heard it on this team, but you can hear it plenty elsewhere.

McDaniels gave up on the long game because it wasn't working. You praise Weis for going deep to keep to keep defenses honest, but that means you should love McDaniels because he likes to stretch the field far more than Weis ever did. In fact, until 2004 Weis was consistently criticized for not trying to stretch the field.

 

[cstjohn17]

Examine his record instead of giving me the won-loss crap. Until Modell blew
up the team he had improved it every year culminating in a WC appearance
where he trashed the mighty Drew. He started with garbage and in his fourth
year he was in the playoffs and won a game. You need to get rid of the
attitude. I am defending his record with another team so how is that being a
homer? God, some people on this site are pathetic and you are one of them.

It sounds like blatant BB ball washing to me, if any other coach had a sub .500 record and 1 playoff appearance in five years I doubt you would be so fast to dig through the morass* to find out the inner meaning of his losing seasons.

*I really didn't think I would get to use that word today, special bonus for me.

 

[The Boston Patriot]

It sounds like blatant BB ball washing to me, if any other coach had a sub .500 record and 1 playoff appearance in five years I doubt you would be so fast to dig through the morass* to find out the inner meaning of his losing seasons.

*I really didn't think I would get to use that word today, special bonus for me.

Typical adolescent juvenile expecting instantaneous gratification you are. No
points given for Thesaurus look up results! Believe it or not, computers used
to be the size of houses. I know it's hard for you to understand but not
everything gets accomplished overnight. It's sort of like your education. It
will come, be patient.

 

[cstjohn17]

Typical adolescent juvenile expecting instantaneous gratification you are. No
points given for Thesaurus look up results! Believe it or not, computers used
to be the size of houses. I know it's hard for you to understand but not
everything gets accomplished overnight. It's sort of like your education. It
will come, be patient.

I forgot Internet forums are not the place for people to take a light hearted approach to harmless banter. They are purely the domain of serious fact driven researchers who can only look at information through the prism of BB colored glasses.

In other words just chill, we disagree so what.

 

[The Boston Patriot]

I forgot Internet forums are not the place for people to take a light hearted approach to harmless banter. They are purely the domain of serious fact driven researchers who can only look at information through the prism of BB colored glasses.

In other words just chill, we disagree so what.

You are correct but why label me a ball-washing homer. I present my case
and you instantly attack me in order to denigrate my position on this. Argue
away but why the attacks? Me thinks that a little chillin' could go all around.

 

[RayClay]

Only in NEM's dreams...

OK, sure, I guess that explains why all offense guys like Petrino and Kiffin (both right out of college) and Cameron and Whisenhunt landed the majority of the HC vacancies last season along with an OC retread like Norv...while only 2 defensive minded coaches landed HC jobs. And one of those was a retread Jerry Jones could manage and the other was coming off his 6th year in the NFL and 1 year as a DC not to mention the epitome of the Rooney Rule.

Most owners don't want to hire Bill Cowher for lots of reasons including cost, control issues and profile. What they want is the next potential Cowher, who when the Steelers hired him, though he had played for a couple of teams, had only a few years as an assistant for Schottenheimer under his belt before he followed him to his next job as his DC for a couple of more years. In other words, a young gun ownership can retain and control (not to mention claim credit for identifying) inexpensively if he pans out but jettison fairly easily if he doesn't.

Mangini had 5 years as a DB's position coach and 1 year as a DC (minus the time at the end of the season when Bill took his headset away...) before he became the HC of the NYJ. While his ego would spin in otherwise, he was a glorified gofer from 1995-1999 (ball boy to offensive QC asst. to defensive QC asst. - in other words breaking down film). If he panned out Woody would have claimed credit for having the foresight to see and act on the early genius while if he fails it was just another shot in the dark gone bad as opposed to another well liked (by the mediots) big name coach like the Herminator to publicly and acrimosiously part with.

Elevated age and perception as career pals and assistants rather than protoges were an issue with both RAC and Charlie. RAC has been hanging by his fingernails in Cleveland almost from the get go as a result. And if we assess Charlie as a HC we have to include all three of his seasons in which his NFL gneius resume doesn't seem to be panning out as a college HC once the novelty wore off. First year he had no defense. Second year he had shaky offense to boot. This year his entire team is a disaster.

I don't doubt Josh coming off his 3rd season (and second official) as the OC of the NEP will field some calls, particularly if we are heading into the playoffs with HFA. The viability of a generation of retreads is dwindling. And the viability of college HC's transitioning to the NFL is at best currently being viewed as a crapshoot. Saban was a debaucle, and Cameron and Petrino are looking thoroughly overmatched at this level.

I don't think Josh is as impatient or ego driven as the always argumentative Mangenius was. I think he will listen to his HC's wisdom and only move on to a better job with his blessing. Belichick isn't inclined to do unto others what his mentor did to him. When they are ready or have earned it or it's too good to pass up, he will let them move on and he will move on as well. I'm sure he's already planning for that day because unlike some armchair OC's who inhabit this message board he apparently thinks Josh is doing an excellent job and likely expects the calls to commence in the forseeable future.

Kiffin joined the USC staff in 2001 as the tight ends coach and became the wide receivers coach in 2002. In 2004, he added the duties of passing game coordinator and was promoted to offensive coordinator in 2005

Originally Posted by RayClay
A defensive coordinator with extensive position coaching experience is much more ready to be a head coach than a guy who draws up plays and talks to the quarterback.

I just don't think a guy who has only coached a quarterback and called plays has overall coaching experience.

Kiffin is also the son of (arguably) the best DC in football.

EDIT: McDaniels is listed as an assistant one year to the defensive backs coach. Something, but not much. I am not really worried about losing him compared to some other coaches.

The guy we just hired was the QB on the mighty John Carrol 11, so he should have a leg up on Josh if the unimaginable horror of losing him comes about.

 

[JoeSixPat]

McDaniels gave up on the long game because it wasn't working.

My complaint is exactly what you acknowledge. McDaniels "gave up" on the deep game.

You don't give up on the running game - even when its not working well. You don't give up on the short game. You don't give up on the deep game.

I wasn't expecting McDaniels to have Brady put up Randy Moss type numbers - just enough to keep defenses honest.

He gave up - and that's my biggest problem with his playcalling.

All I'm saying is that if he comes into a team that has a mediocre QB (and of course we had a great one) and mediocre WRs - the GM should be prepared for the fact that McDaniels will likely "give up" on the deep game just like you said he did here.

Weis might not have thrown deep enough as far as everyone was concerned (which is in itself a high risk scenario so I'm not wanting a deep throw every play even now) but I don't think anyone ever accused him of "giving up" on the deep plays either.

 

[Deus Irae]

My complaint is exactly what you acknowledge. McDaniels "gave up" on the deep game.

You don't give up on the running game - even when its not working well. You don't give up on the short game. You don't give up on the deep game.

I wasn't expecting McDaniels to have Brady put up Randy Moss type numbers - just enough to keep defenses honest.

He gave up - and that's my biggest problem with his playcalling.

All I'm saying is that if he comes into a team that has a mediocre QB (and of course we had a great one) and mediocre WRs - the GM should be prepared for the fact that McDaniels will likely "give up" on the deep game just like you said he did here.

Weis might not have thrown deep enough as far as everyone was concerned (which is in itself a high risk scenario so I'm not wanting a deep throw every play even now) but I don't think anyone ever accused him of "giving up" on the deep plays either.

You're wrong in your argument, and you have been from the beginning. Just admit it and move on. You'll feel better afterwards.

 

[Rob0729]

My complaint is exactly what you acknowledge. McDaniels "gave up" on the deep game.

You don't give up on the running game - even when its not working well. You don't give up on the short game. You don't give up on the deep game.

I wasn't expecting McDaniels to have Brady put up Randy Moss type numbers - just enough to keep defenses honest.

He gave up - and that's my biggest problem with his playcalling.

All I'm saying is that if he comes into a team that has a mediocre QB (and of course we had a great one) and mediocre WRs - the GM should be prepared for the fact that McDaniels will likely "give up" on the deep game just like you said he did here.

Weis might not have thrown deep enough as far as everyone was concerned (which is in itself a high risk scenario so I'm not wanting a deep throw every play even now) but I don't think anyone ever accused him of "giving up" on the deep plays either.

He still did it more than Weis. For the most part, Weis rarely went deep other than right after a turnover. So when McDaniels gave up on the long pass, he Weised the offense. Weis did never quit on the deep pass because he rarely went deep. How can you quit on something you never do?

Weis' tenure here has been so revised by history it is crazy. Weis was roundly criticized in 2002 and 2003 for overrelying on trick plays that didn't work (the man loved the FB draw on third downs even if it was 3rd and long eventhough it worked 1 time out of ten), a lot of three and outs, and for never going deep.

McDaniels is arguably a better OC right now than Weis was any year other than 2004.

 

[Rob0729]

PS Why would McDaniels continue to throw the deep ball when it clearly wasn't working. If he committed to it and the Patriots continually went 3, 4, or 5 and out consistently; he would have been criticized for that too.

You cannot commit to the deep ball if you do not have receivers who can get open and get under the ball to catch it. It is stupid play calling to commit to it just to stretch the field because it won't commit defenses to play off the line of scrimmage if they don't think the offense can actually beat you with a deep pass.

 

[Rob0729]

You're wrong in your argument, and you have been from the beginning. Just admit it and move on. You'll feel better afterwards.

Yeah, the numbers clearly do not support his arguement that McDaniels didn't try to stretch the field as much as Weis, but he still argues the point.

McDaniels haters really have nothing to support their arguement except that he isn't Charlie Weis. I'm sure that when he goes shopping for clothes or looks at himself in the mirror, he doesn't think that is a bad thing. But I don't think it really means much in the play calling department.

McDaniels adjustments to what defenses are throwing at him are as good or better as Weis ever did. He doesn't like the gimmick plays as much as Weis (although he knows when to throw in the reverse far better than Weis ever did), but that isn't neccessarily a bad thing. McDaniels is far better than Weis was two years into his OC tenure. He is better than Weis was two years into his tenure with Brady.

 

[patchick]

If some feel the OC bears no responsibility for that, like I said, they're entitled to their opinion. Of course, these are many of the same people who felt that there was no need for an upgrade at WR last season too.

Personally, I wouldn't dream of saying the OC bears no responsibility, any more than I'd say that the OC should get no credit for this year's success. But if pressed, I would say that the sorry collection of castoffs that made up last year's receiving corp was an even bigger factor in the lack of a deep passing game. What's more, I think it's fair to say that BB agrees since he kept the offensive coaching staff but replaced the entire receiving corps! Which was the point of my post, which you chose to sidestep by creating a "some feel" straw man.

I honestly don't get your argument, JSP. You're saying two things that seem to argue in opposite directions:

1. Some say our receivers last year were just fine, while you know they were pitiful;

2. Some say our offensive coordinator last year was handcuffed by a pitiful receiving corps, while you know that a competent playcaller would have done just fine with those receivers.

Armed with a pair of opposite opinions, it's easy to be in position to say the other person's wrong.

 

[JoeSixPat]

You're wrong in your argument, and you have been from the beginning. Just admit it and move on. You'll feel better afterwards.

Sorry - I just don't think a good OC "gives up" on any aspect of the game - balance is always key.

Heck - when Parcells was here and Marion Butts was "tearing it up" for less than 3 yards a carry, he never "gave up" on the running game. He understood that doing so would invite opposing offense to tee off on the passing game and still had Butts alone carry about 250 times.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree - you're on record that that we were just fine at WR last season and I'm of the strong opinion that the lack of a deep game and McDaniels play calling was a major deficiency in 2006. It kindof seems like BB and Pioli are leaning my way.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...hread.php?t=52441&page=2&highlight=stallworth

You didn't think Welker was a significant upgrade over Brown - I did and feel even more stongly about that now.

Please explain how Welker is a 'significant' upgrade to Brown.

Troy Brown was the team's #3 receiver last season. In that role, he was far more successful at picking up first downs than Welker was. Welker was a lesser punt returner than Kevin Faulk was last season and does not likely represent an upgrade there, either. Welker did not play cornerback when needed, to the best of my knowledge. What Welker did was catch more balls in an offense that threw more often than New England's.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, and you're just going to have to agree to disagree with BB about our WRs since he's the one who brought in, not one, not two, not three, but FOUR new WRs this season.

So I'd say I'm on pretty solid ground when I suggest that WR was a point of weakness last season.

The question of whether McDaniels "giving up" on the deep game last season was smart or stupid is another matter - but hereagain, like with a poor running game, I think one NEVER gives up on a key aspect of the game, lest they want to invite the entire opposing defense to line up at the line of scrimmage - which is pretty much what we saw last season.

 

[PromisedLand]

To get back to the original topic of the thread, it would seem to me that if NFL GM's have any brains (debatable in some cases), they wouldn't be in such a hurry to hire Patriots assistants as head coaches. I mean, they haven't exactly covered themselves with glory, have they?

Romeo might or might not save his job after two losing seasons in Cleveland.

Mangini started out like gangbusters against a cupcake schedule but that is starting to look like a fluke.

Charlie is taking heavy fire at Notre Dame.

You can even go back to BB's Cleveland days and throw Nick Saban into that mix - he didn't exactly save the day for the Dolphins, did he?

The natural assumption is that because the Patriots have been so successful in the BB era, that any assistant is going to be able to reproduce the magic somewhere else. The evidence indicates otherwise. Sooner or later the other GM's will figure that out.

 

[Deus Irae]

Sorry - I just don't think a good OC "gives up" on any aspect of the game - balance is always key.

Heck - when Parcells was here and Marion Butts was "tearing it up" for less than 3 yards a carry, he never "gave up" on the running game. He understood that doing so would invite opposing offense to tee off on the passing game and still had Butts alone carry about 250 times.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree - you're on record that that we were just fine at WR last season and I'm of the strong opinion that the lack of a deep game and McDaniels play calling was a major deficiency in 2006. It kindof seems like BB and Pioli are leaning my way.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...hread.php?t=52441&page=2&highlight=stallworth

You didn't think Welker was a significant upgrade over Brown - I did and feel even more stongly about that now.



We're just going to have to agree to disagree, and you're just going to have to agree to disagree with BB about our WRs since he's the one who brought in, not one, not two, not three, but FOUR new WRs this season.

So I'd say I'm on pretty solid ground when I suggest that WR was a point of weakness last season.

The question of whether McDaniels "giving up" on the deep game last season was smart or stupid is another matter - but hereagain, like with a poor running game, I think one NEVER gives up on a key aspect of the game, lest they want to invite the entire opposing defense to line up at the line of scrimmage - which is pretty much what we saw last season.

I'll let your post stand as a classic example of a person destroying his own argument and not even realizing it. You're so blinded by your erroneous opinion that you can't even see how your own argument guts that opinion.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I'll let your post stand as a classic example of a person destroying his own argument and not even realizing it. You're so blinded by your erroneous opinion that you can't even see how your own argument guts that opinion.

Yep - I'll stand by my "erroneous" opinion that Welker was an upgrade over Troy, that we needed upgrades at WR over last year, and that giving up key segments of the offensive gameplan is not the wisest move.

I'm feeling pretty good about all that.