Welcome to PatsFans.com

Scary Thought- Clergy privilege under fire in court

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patsfanin Philly, Feb 8, 2012.

  1. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    6,759
    Likes Received:
    27
    Ratings:
    +70 / 0 / -0

    #95 Jersey

    Are Church Confessions Safe? Court To Hear Arguments « CBS Detroit

    It used to be sacred that anything said to a clergy was protected, no matter what. It's scary if this is overturned. Yes, it is a heinous crime, he's accused of, but if you can't speak to your priest, minister or rabbi without knowing it is held in confidence, what would be the end result????
    -------------
    This crosses R/D lines
     
  2. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

    Mrs.PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2009
    Messages:
    15,889
    Likes Received:
    328
    Ratings:
    +559 / 9 / -5

    #24 Jersey

    I was always under the impression that it only remained private if it was done in the confessional and if the person was seeking absolution or God's forgiveness through the priest or minister. In other words, the priest/minister/rabbi had to be "working," not just conversing....just like patient/doctor privlege only exists if there's a patient/doctor relationship. If I run into my doctor at a football party and I tell him that I just robbed the hot dog vendor, he's perfectly within his rights to tell the nearest cop.

    According to the minister's story, the suspect in question had not asked forgiveness or absolution, his mother was present (which would negate any sort of 2 person confidentiality between a priest and his penitent) and it was the priest asking questions and the suspect answering.

    Maybe a shady grey, but I dunno. I think I'd be ok with it if that's what actually happened.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2012
  3. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    41,795
    Likes Received:
    180
    Ratings:
    +365 / 11 / -27

    Interesting case, because of all of the extranious circumstance.. a whole lot of grey here.
     
  4. Patsfanin Philly

    Patsfanin Philly Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2005
    Messages:
    6,759
    Likes Received:
    27
    Ratings:
    +70 / 0 / -0

    #95 Jersey

    It's interesting that certain states exempt child abuse from clergy privilege, likely to protect the victim as the greater good....

    Clergy as Mandatory Reporters of Child Abuse and Neglect: Summary of State Laws
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2012
  5. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    40,198
    Likes Received:
    196
    Ratings:
    +667 / 2 / -9

    Never tell a preacher anything, never, if you want to tell somebody tell it to your God when yu are alone in the dark, tell him in your mind never tell him out loud a preacher or your spouse might be listening.

    GOD WILLING
     
  6. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,675
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    Never understood that whole secrecy thing being special priviledge for clergy. This is part of the whole "mystery" of religious fanatics who assert their power and dominion over the flock. Why do they have this protection? Because God has granted them the status as a special channel of communication between heaven and Earth. Why do we believe this garbage? Because we're told it is true and an article of faith. What does this have to do with the reality of Law? Nothing.

    Hopefully the clergy's institutional theft of money and rape of children has given society enough skepticism to ask why we still believe their crap. I hope the court strike this moronic adherence to superstitious bullsh!t down swiftly and strongly.
     
  7. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    40,198
    Likes Received:
    196
    Ratings:
    +667 / 2 / -9

    I always wondered if those women abusing, hypocritical, whore mongering Kennedys went to confession, can you just imagine being a young innocent Priest sitting in a closet and listening to the sins commited by JFK, Bobby and Unce Teddy, that would be enough to make me leave the priesthood.

    Remember "Cardinal Cushing" those Kennedy's were his heros.

    Poor old Rose the mother spent her whole married life in church asking God to forgive them and her bootlegging philandering husband, old Joe the father made a fool out of his own wife.

    :bricks:
    "blb, blub, gasp, save me teddy, please call the police, gurgle"
     
  8. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,131
    Likes Received:
    219
    Ratings:
    +525 / 6 / -2

    Why would you understand it? You despise religion. It's like your average female trying to understand why most men become raging lunatics after their favorite team loses in the SB. They can't. Thankfully the founders stuck that pesky little amendment into the Constitution that protects the rights of the faithfull.
     
  9. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    13,102
    Likes Received:
    126
    Ratings:
    +253 / 3 / -4

    It sounds like the actual laws don't offer a blanket confidentiality privilege -- just when the privilege is related to the religion. Which would be required for there to be freedom of religion.

    (whether that actually applies in this case is an interesting question)
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2012
  10. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,675
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    Oh! Now I despise religion! Before I despised religious people. Well, at least you've finally gotten it right. Too bad you're too blinded by your reverence for superstition to understand that no one's taking away the rights of anyone to practice religion. They're just challenging the idea that these clergy frauds have given themselves priviledges that no one else has simply because they claim to have them by divine right. Same reason kings claim their authority. It has nothing to do with anything that's been "commanded by God" or even written in the Koran, Bible or Torah. It's all crap made up by men and you know it.

    Religion is religion. This is about the Law. Just because some bishops made up a rule in the Middle Ages so they could murder and rape at will without consequences is no reason to continue the practice. If someone commits a crime and a priest knows who did it, why should that priest be granted the right to obstruct justice? What if the victim doesn't belong to that religion (or does) and wants justice? What if, because of that magical priviledge, the perp goes on to commit another crime, then another, when the priest could have- and should have-reported the crime. What about the rights of the victims? This mysterious supernatural connection with god that the clergy claim to have is nonsense. Just because you confess your sins is no reason you should never have to pay for them, and ten "Our Fathers" and twenty "Hail Marys" don't cut it sometimes.
     
  11. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    13,102
    Likes Received:
    126
    Ratings:
    +253 / 3 / -4

    should attorneys and doctors also not have confidentiality privileges?

    This isn't about the priest, it's about the individual -- a citizen whose freedom of religion is protected by the Constitution.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2012
  12. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    41,795
    Likes Received:
    180
    Ratings:
    +365 / 11 / -27

    Always find the freedom of religion somewhat duplicitous... if the government makes any effort to cross the line and get involved in something relisioius screaming and squealing like little piggies, but for some reason the religious folks feel compelled to impose their values on elected officials..

    Have a terrific time reconciling this...
     
  13. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2005
    Messages:
    40,198
    Likes Received:
    196
    Ratings:
    +667 / 2 / -9

    People in America have The Freedom to believe and Worship "their god" if it makes them feel better and gives them comfort that is GOOD.

    It seems as though Jug Ears has bitten off a little more than he can chew on this "religious sh!t" no pun intended but as I see it THE WRATH OF GOD IS ABOUT TO DESCEND UPON THE WHITE HOUSE.

    GOD WILLING
     
  14. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    41,795
    Likes Received:
    180
    Ratings:
    +365 / 11 / -27

    Thought you did not like religion in your politics, situational arguments, again?????
     
  15. wistahpatsfan

    wistahpatsfan Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2005
    Messages:
    15,675
    Likes Received:
    11
    Ratings:
    +13 / 0 / -1

    #75 Jersey

    Freedom of religion is never open-ended. We can't sacrifice virgins and we can't keep a child from receiving medical treatment after his arm has been crushed in a car crash (or can we?) No one will be restricted from practicing religion if a priest can be held on obstruction charges for protecting a serial rapist. What does that have to do with the First? Free speech is restricted. Why is freedom of religion allowed to be completely unrestricted?

    Attorney priviledge is necessary in many cases and very different. The Attorney is directly involved in legal proceedings and is bound by reason to no divulge information to the state that may harm his client because it is up to the prosecution to prove guilt in any criminal case and the defendant is presumed innocent. In criminal cases, I do not see the reason for medical information to be kept from the court if it pertains to the case. A warrant can be issued for any such information if I'm not mistaken. I do not see the difference between a shrink knowing that one of his clients is a rapist on the loose and a priest having the same information. They should be compelled to report violent crimes as well, IMO, if they aren't already. Can't we make a distinction between a trained professional therapist, lawyer, doctor and some crackpot preacher or a priest?

    Of course there's the slippery slope arguement we always hear. "What will they come for next?":eek:. That's not the point. There can be limits and restrictions put on these scenarios. For instance, a doctor shouldn't be required to testify in a divorce, etc...That can be worked out too. I'm talking about serious crimes of violence. Maybe it can be limited to that.
     
  16. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,131
    Likes Received:
    219
    Ratings:
    +525 / 6 / -2

    Religion, religious people, with respect to this particular topic are one and the same. You can't have a confession in a religious context without one or the other.

    I think your post reinforces what I said. I'm not trying to criticize you personally, or call you names. I'm simply trying to point out why people like you "don't get it". Thankfully the founders did.

    BTW, I don't go to church, and am not very "religious". That doesn't mean I don't understand what some people may feel, or objectively respect what it is they choose to practice. I don't own a gun, but I understand, and respect the right of people to own one.

    As for the privacy/priveledge deal, couldn't the same be said of doctors and lawyers? Shouldn't they report what it is they know, since the perp could commit further crimes upon innocent victims?
     
  17. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    13,102
    Likes Received:
    126
    Ratings:
    +253 / 3 / -4

    Agreed -- fortunately, reasonable religious people tend to agree as well.
     
  18. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    13,102
    Likes Received:
    126
    Ratings:
    +253 / 3 / -4

    Religious freedom isn't completely unrestricted, just like freedom of speech and other rights aren't.

    One easy distinction is whether anybody else's rights are harmed. Sacrificing somebody or not treating a child in a life-threatening situation involves infringing on another person's rights, for example.

    If priests could divulge confessions, that absolutely does violate freeom of religion -- confession is a sacrament in Catholicism. There is a distinction b/t that and something a person tells a priest over a beer, though, from what I've read about this case (or maybe that's up in the air right now? if it is, in that kind of situation I would completely agree with you).

    I think there's also an exception if the priest, doctor, etc. knows a crime is being committed or about to be committed, as opposed to having been committed in the past. And I think that even goes for attorneys, as well. (But that could be completely incorrect, as it's probably based on watching Criminal Minds or Law & Order. :) )
     
  19. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,131
    Likes Received:
    219
    Ratings:
    +525 / 6 / -2

    Religious "folks" try to impose their values on elected officials, just like the non religious attempt to impose theirs as well. The only difference is what drives the issues being imposed. Religious "folks" are driven by their respective faiths, while the non religious we'll call them, are driven by emotion, personal experience, or inner reasoning (among other things). I personally don't like, or approve of bible bopping if you will. I don't think religion has a place in government policy. That "they" try to insert their beliefs on policy makers though, is genuinely no different than any activist attempting to do the same. For the most part anyway.
     
  20. PatriotsReign

    PatriotsReign Hall of Fame Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2007
    Messages:
    26,649
    Likes Received:
    142
    Ratings:
    +383 / 3 / -15

    May almighty God bless and forgive you wistah....
     

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>