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Say Goodbye to Tully Banta Cain...


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Well we seem to agree on the bottom line, so no point arguing semantics. ;)

yeah that was kinda what i was trying to say but just thought tully really takes an undeserved beating as he as more than played up to a 7th round pick.
 
I keep scratching my head over where people get the one dimensional stuff or it's friend, the can't stop the run stuff. It isn't there on tape. He may never play at the same level as Vrabel, but he was just about Colvin's speed from what I saw on tape.


No intent to put words in your mouth, Box.
But i would appreciate an expansion of the highlighted observation.

Is TBC so close to Colvin's performance
that perhaps Tully should get some money
... while we consider "re-structuring" Rosey's 3XL contract?
 
No intent to put words in your mouth, Box.
But i would appreciate an expansion of the highlighted observation.

Is TBC so close to Colvin's performance
that perhaps Tully should get some money
... while we consider "re-structuring" Rosey's 3XL contract?
I'm not a capologist and it's Bob Kraft's money, so contract details are for others to argue.

What "I" saw on tape were two guys that were similar in performance, allowing for experience and location on the line. Warren dominated last season, if you played alongside him you had a lot of help. Seymour had injury issues, if you played alongside him you had a tougher challenge.

As for Salty's recollection of the yardage change thread, there were also people posting in that thread with other positions on the numbers being argued. An example would be noting the change at NT and SS during the period in question.

There have been arguments put forward laying the entire "blame" for decreased efficiency against the run on TBC, those arguments ignore the other factors involved, such as the re-shuffle at LB noted above.

The only way to effectively grade TBC is to watch him on tape, not live during the game; novices such as myself can't critique a player's performance with any accuracy at game speeds. I need to re-watch the game tape using slow motion to track each player and to have any hope in puzzling out what happened - you might notice BB refuses to comment on a player's performance before he has watched tape, and I'm fairly certain that regulars to this forum aren't up to his standard at game speed.

I watch tape to understand, not to find fault with a player. I watch TBC and I see the first DE to LB developed from a Pats' larvea since Tedy Bruschi. I see a LB doing a good job in underneath zone coverage; due to injury, I see a young LB getting his first extended taste of 3-4 OLB at game speed and holding his own against starters, setting the edge and turning plays inside. He also made a few tackles, 40 Total in 5 starts out of 16 games played that ranks him 16th on the roster - compare that to 8th ranked Rosie who had 59 in 15 starts and 16 games played and you can argue that TBC got off his blocks better then people credit. Add on TBC's 10 ST's tackles and he put a fair number of people on the ground.

If people who question TBC's game would go back to tape and attempt to break down each play describing how TBC was the player giving up the running plays and underneath receptions I'd be glad to read their work. So far people have attempted to use "team" statistics and apply it to TBC - when they can control for all the "other team members" who are playing those statistics might be valid in arguments, for now it's shoddy analysis. Telling me how carefully you watched him during a game doesn't cut it either, I know the number of football geniuses posting on this forum is astronomically low - but speak up if I slight you.

Bottom line: On tape TBC is a good 3-4 OLB who at minimum is a good reserve. If he is signed away for a better offer, such is the NFL, BB just has to push Alexander and Woods along faster or sign a couple vets who can fill in until they are ready.
 
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I'm not losing sleep over TBC.

If he wants to come back for reasonable money, fine. If not fine.

If we had any competition at all at backup LB, he might have improved or been gone already.

Hard to judge someone when you only develop 1 guy in 4 years to back up 4 positions.
 
We did get James Hall DE from the Lions today for a 5th round pick. I like the deal. I remember how well he played on the Titans. If Banta signs, it will be to add some depth for either DE spot. I am hoping we can find some help at run stuffing DT, since we struggled against the run.
 
I think TBC is gone. I'll miss him though. He came in a DE who could only rush the QB. As he appears to now be leaving, he leaves a solid player against the run and a tremendous pass rusher. Perhaps no champ bailey in coverage, but no one is perfect. I'd like to see him return. But he appears to be getting offered full time roles and more money elsewhere, you can hardly blame him for leaving the Pats, considering the situation at OLB on the Pats now with Colvin, Thomas, and Vrabel. Even if one of those 3 moved inside most of the time, TBC would be looking at backup duty.
 
Here is the other side to the "Patriots use players for their rookie contracts and then don't want to pay them".

How about "They coach up marginal late rounders and then they leave for the big bucks."

Exactly. Tom Ashworth's agent, for example, was very gracious about saying that as Ashworth went to Seattle. And Givens only slipped once or twice from that high-road stance (and then not too badly).

It also won't hurt TBC that the Pats are upgrading to Thomas. "Yes, we sadly must admit that TBC isn't as good a player as Thomas ..." Not a big black mark there. ;)
 
Thank you for your analysis Box O Rocks. I admit that all of my impressions of TBC are a result of "on the fly" analysis of his play, and as such may not be entirely accurate.

What I saw, generally speaking, was a guy who put together a pretty mean pass rush. It seemed like just about every play where he blitzed, he managed to force an extra blocker his way, or put direct pressure on the QB, or get the knock down/sack. Pretty impressive. However, I rarely noticed him at all in run support and pretty much never in pass defense (though that is probably because he rushed so much). Hence, my thinking that he is a one-dimensional player only suited for the pass rush.

It is quite possible that I have missed indicators about his potential to develop in the areas of run support and pass defense. Perhaps he was always just a little bit out of position against the run, and with some more experience and tweaking that will be fixed to a satisfactory extent. I don't know. If that is the case, I'd like to see him re-signed, but it would still have to be at quite a favorable price.

My impression is that he and his agent are looking for something fairly substantial, perhaps in the $4 million per year range? In that case, there is pretty much no doubt that the Pats would be better served in letting TBC move on.
 
Your welcome neighbor, I know how game speed and the idiots in the booth chattering about the star they kissed before the game can lead to the wrong impression. It wasn't until I got a DVR and could record and rewatch all the games that I started seeing the little things I was missing, a lot of them - I can't say enough good about a DVR!

As you mentioned, he is a good pass rusher, just imagine if the Colts had the sense to let Freeney go and bulk TBC back up to his college weight. Folks may not remember the flap in pre-season when he dropped into coverage and everybody was mad about the completion against him. BB came back in his press conference and defended TBC for actually making a heads up play to know the guy was uncovered, it just went on from there. People complained that he was missing tackles in the opener against Buffalo, but you'd see the RB being turned back inside by his edge set, and Seymour and/or the ILBs not getting off the block. Remember him turning Losman back into Warren for the safety, the kid made some plays.

He's a good kid, played hard for us. I hope he's re-signed because he and Jaret Johnson are the two best 3-4 reserves in this FA period. But if he does go to somebody else, I hope he gets the kind of money that sets him up for life when he's trying to get medical care and the NFLPA is ignoring him - and gives the Pats some counter-balance in the comp pick equation.

:rocker:
Thank you for your analysis Box O Rocks. I admit that all of my impressions of TBC are a result of "on the fly" analysis of his play, and as such may not be entirely accurate.

What I saw, generally speaking, was a guy who put together a pretty mean pass rush. It seemed like just about every play where he blitzed, he managed to force an extra blocker his way, or put direct pressure on the QB, or get the knock down/sack. Pretty impressive. However, I rarely noticed him at all in run support and pretty much never in pass defense (though that is probably because he rushed so much). Hence, my thinking that he is a one-dimensional player only suited for the pass rush.

It is quite possible that I have missed indicators about his potential to develop in the areas of run support and pass defense. Perhaps he was always just a little bit out of position against the run, and with some more experience and tweaking that will be fixed to a satisfactory extent. I don't know. If that is the case, I'd like to see him re-signed, but it would still have to be at quite a favorable price.

My impression is that he and his agent are looking for something fairly substantial, perhaps in the $4 million per year range? In that case, there is pretty much no doubt that the Pats would be better served in letting TBC move on.
 
Like salty, i also benefited from Box's careful ... restrained ... explanation.

If it wasn't for Box i'd feel very lonely,
trying to keep believing
that TBC is as good a second-stringer as one can hope for ... a la Jarvis.

For weeks now, salty, i've been quite certain that you'd never put "check"
alongside the 2nd item in your sig.
Congrats!
 
bye bye tbc dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out .does anybody really care about tbc .:rolleyes:
 
I think TBC is gone. I'll miss him though. He came in a DE who could only rush the QB. As he appears to now be leaving, he leaves a solid player against the run and a tremendous pass rusher. Perhaps no champ bailey in coverage, but no one is perfect. I'd like to see him return. But he appears to be getting offered full time roles and more money elsewhere, you can hardly blame him for leaving the Pats, considering the situation at OLB on the Pats now with Colvin, Thomas, and Vrabel. Even if one of those 3 moved inside most of the time, TBC would be looking at backup duty.


In another thread, broadwayjoe now quotes John Clayton as follows:

The Rams continue to try to improve their defense. .... They also brought in linebacker/defensive end Tully Banta-Cain from New England.
 
We did get James Hall DE from the Lions today for a 5th round pick. I like the deal. I remember how well he played on the Titans. If Banta signs, it will be to add some depth for either DE spot. I am hoping we can find some help at run stuffing DT, since we struggled against the run.

link?......NM, I thought you meant the Pats.

Good luck to the Rams, I guess.:D
 
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For weeks now, salty, i've been quite certain that you'd never put "check"
alongside the 2nd item in your sig.
Congrats!

Thank you, I'm very proud! :D
 
link?......NM, I thought you meant the Pats.

Good luck to the Rams, I guess.:D

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17422530/

Lions trade DE James Hall to Rams for draft pick
Associated Press Sports
Updated: 7:59 p.m. ET March 2, 2007
DETROIT (AP) -The Detroit Lions acquired another selection in April's draft on Friday, sending defensive end James Hall to the St. Louis Rams for a fifth-round pick.

The Lions also made official the trade of cornerback Dre' Bly and a sixth-round pick to the Denver Broncos for running back Tatum Bell, offensive tackle George Foster and a fifth-round pick.

Hall had five sacks in seven games before an injury ended his season. He had 33 career sacks in seven seasons with the Lions. Hall, a solid performer throughout his tenure in Detroit, had 3 1/2 sacks in a 20-17 win over the Buffalo Bills in October.

The deal with the Broncos fills needs for both teams, giving Denver a Pro Bowl-caliber player to replace the late Darrent Williams and allowing Detroit to have more options in free agency and with the No. 2 pick overall in April. The Lions gave Bly, who has one year left on his contract, permission to seek a trade and added assets instead of releasing him with nothing to show for it.

Also Friday, the Lions released tight end Marcus Pollard and defensive tackles Marcus Bell and Tyoka Jackson, and re-signed long snapper Don Muhlbach to a five-year contract.

Pollard played 10 seasons with Indianapolis before Detroit signed him as a free agent in March 2005. He started all 16 games in 2005 and had 46 receptions for 516 yards, but had just 12 catches for 100 yards last season.

Bell played three seasons for Arizona before joining the Lions in March 2005. He played in 13 games last season and recorded a career-high 52 tackles before going on the injured list Dec. 18 with a hand injury.

Jackson played in 15 games last season, his first in Detroit and 12th in the NFL, and had 30 tackles and two sacks. Muhlbach joined the Lions midway through the 2004 season and had a career-high seven special teams tackles in 2006.


© 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
 
Even without the possible Thomas signing, if we lose Tully. NO BIG DEAL. He wasn't that good to begin with.
 
I dont know about you guys, but I had great success with TBC on madden


...Too bad madden isnt real life, huh?

See ya Tully
 
According to Sirius NFL Radio, TBC has agreed to a contract with the Rams. Financial terms weren't mentioned...

Good luck in St. Louis TBC...
 
According to Sirius NFL Radio, TBC has agreed to a contract with the Rams. Financial terms weren't mentioned...

Good luck in St. Louis TBC...

TBC, I'll drive you to the airport to get you out of our front 7.
 
he is more of a pass rush specialist but I don't think he was as bad at the run as others would like to think. and those that point to his benching in Indy, I think that had more to do with wanting Alexander on the field and Vrabel on the outside than benching tully.

As I recall both Tedy and TBC were getting intravenous liquids the week before the AFCCG. They were both sick and all the Safeties all 5 were out too and then the Pats lost their sixth S in the first half. IMO, that was why Alexander was getting his first start in the AFCCG.

TBC adds youth and great pass rushing to the OLB corps. His pass coverage was not great, but his run coverage was no where near as bad as some have suggested.
 
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