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Salon has all the Abu Ghraib photos

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by Patters, Feb 16, 2006.

  1. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/02/16/abu_ghraib/

    You can argue whether it was right of Salon to release the photos, but the fact is in this world that's the kind of thing the media does. The damage to our claims of being righteous will certainly be severe. As Dick Durbin said, looking at these photos makes one think of the Nazis or of Stalin. It's horrific that our country should be involved in things like this and that our President and Vice-President should want to legalize this kind of torture. This is the exact kind of material that we used to discredit Saddam and the Soviet regime.
     
  2. PatsFanInEaglesLand

    PatsFanInEaglesLand In the Starting Line-Up

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    #37 Jersey

    Are you fu(king me with the Nazi and Stalin references? They killed nearly 40 million people combined! Sending someone to die in a gas chamber or making someone freeze to death is not even close to what was going on there. Neither you nor Durbin have any clue what it must be like to guard and interrogate a person hell bent on destroying you, for you guys to say stuff like this is just trying to score political points at the expense of the military, which is reprehensible.
     
  3. ELOrocks17

    ELOrocks17 Guest

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    Amen to that!
     
  4. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    LOOKING AT THOSE PHOTOS makes one think of the KIND OF THINGS that the Nazis and Stalin did. Looking at piles of dead bodies in graves, gas chambers, and people being used for medical experiments also makes me think of the Nazis and Stalin. If you saw the Abu Ghraib photos and did not know they had anything to do with us, what would you think of: a Christmas dinner?
     
  5. Chevy

    Chevy Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    The reality is that this is nowhere near the realm of torture in the classical sense. Kids, this isn't a bunch of 12 year olds playing Army. These prisoners are part of a group that wants to see western civilization eradicated. Attacking their weakness (their religion and sense of modesty) is an effective tactic in breaking down their will, making them more likely to divulge sensitive information.

    We didn't resort to true torture - that is the application of pain. There were no racks, electric shocks. We didn't behead any prisoners.

    To compare Abu Graib to anything done by Stalin or Hitler is merely posturing for the benefit of the media at the expense of our troops.
     
  6. ELOrocks17

    ELOrocks17 Guest

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    Hmm...Patters...Exacty how many prisoners died in Abu garab? How many dies in Aushwitz?

    Abu Garab=0
    Aushwitz= 60,000


    Yep...i can see that they are so similar..its shocking.
     
  7. Pujo

    Pujo Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Let's deal with real-world grays, not black-and-white.

    What we're doing to prisoners is wrong, though not as bad as what the nazis or Stalin did in their times.

    You don't need electrical shocks to constitute torture - you try kneeling, bent over with your hands being pulled up behind your back for hours. Why is it wrong?

    1. These people are SUSPECTS. Most of them are probably guilty as hell, but there are some who are there because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. It wouldn't shock me if 10%-15% of prisoners were not guilty of a crime.

    2. Any information obtained like this is very suspect because people will say anything to get out of a bad situation.

    And this has nothing to do with the soldiers. They're following orders from politicians.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2006
  8. Chevy

    Chevy Third String But Playing on Special Teams

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    Actually, your point #2 is wrong. Classical Torture - beatings, yanking teeth/fingernails, the real damaging stuff - will often get you false information for the reasons you stated. However, sleep deprivation, high levels of embarrasment - designed to break down your will over time - work because they get you to give up, not give in. These interrogation techniques are common practice, accepted, and have been in use for many years.
     
  9. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    A human being is a human being:

    When is the last time you have heard the "Sore Losing Bush Hating Anti American Media" even slightly or even EVER mention Saddam and Sons.

    Gassing humans, raping children, beheading, amputating legs, feet, hands and cutting out tongues, forcing little children to watch as their fathers were trown from rooftops and when they hit the ground their guts went all over their childrens faces.

    Why do these same "Bush Hating Scum" try their best to prevent us from ever seeing another 9/11 picture for as long as we live.

    It is totally disgusting to see the Left Wing Liberal Media turn on their President and their Country all out of "Childish Jealousy And Hatred" that they hold for one man, GEORGE W BUSH.
    THANK GOD I AM NOT ONE OF YOU.
     
  10. Pujo

    Pujo Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    I disagree, though my disagreement comes from gut feeling and not from research. Is there any research on the effectiveness of what you're saying?

    Also, how to we reconcile the need for information with my point #1 above?
     
  11. Pujo

    Pujo Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Well yes, Saddam & co did HORRIBLE things. Why are we looking to him as our model and giving Muslims legitimacy when they complain that WE'RE the bad guy (and by "complain", I mean blow things up).
     
  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Chevy, what principles do you hold dear? Privacy? Human rights? Treating people with dignity?

    Why are you so easily convinced that only by humiliating and torturing our enemies can we defend ourselves? The belief is very very long way from being proved. If we were in imminent danger, then torture might have to be considered. But, there's no evidence yet that torture has provided superior results than other tactics.

    We don't need to wiretap Americans and we don't need to engage in torture in order to defend ourselves. What steps will you favor if there's another attack? If torture does not work, do you feel we should do even worse to these people? That's the trajectory that brutal societies follow.
     
  13. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Sit back, smile, be kind and gentle, don't fight back, then when they invade they will immediately cut your head off, then they will be in charge and your women will have to wear ablack sheet and ride in the back seat of the car, the womens donkey will be in the front seat.

    Do you all remember the kid in the school yard that wouldn't fight back, every kid in the school used him for a punching bag. Sad but true, we are animals that are called human.

    If you have ONE prisoner that knows something that will save 500,000 lives what do you do?

    The ACLU would turn him loose and let the 500,000 DIE.
     
  14. Pujo

    Pujo Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    You're a weak, terrified old man if you think torturing prisoners is the only way to fight back. You're right that we need to do something, you just have no idea what.
     
  15. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    I haven't seen every picture but I have no problem with almost all the ones I've seen. Torture is getting your finger nails pulled out slowly. One by one. Etc. Not standing naked for 12 hours. Not that I would like to do that but it's not torture in my mind.
     
  16. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Patters, this guy is calling me names.

    Find a way to stop your enemy from killing you and your family and there will be no need for "Interrogation" until then it is mans duty to protect the many from the few, you may be one of them that dies if they don't.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2006
  17. ELOrocks17

    ELOrocks17 Guest

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    Pujo---How many times do I have to tell you that Musli Terrorists dont give 2 sh*ts about the niceties. The only thing they respect is FORCE. That is why we were attacked in the first place-they thought we didnt have the will to fight (Thanks to Clinton). These people cut heads off of people as standard operating procedure, do you really think they are going to be impressed by how nicely we are treating thier murderous comrads in jail? What we need to do is tell them that any terrorist caught will be converted to Christianity and then be sent stait to hell (minus the 37 virgins, of course). Lets see how many lose the will to fight.
     
  18. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The left never used to believe the right when it expressed horror at the Soviet and Chinese treatment of prisoners. I suppose we were right. You're not against abuse. You're just creating a tier system where certain types of abuse are okay, and your measure is very simply. If it's okay with Bush; it's okay with you. It's called rationalizing.
     
  19. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    ELO.
    It's like talking to a tree stump, they know nothing about the streets or the law of jungle. That is why you never want a babbling liberal trying to run a war.

    If Gore or Kerry had been elected Chicago would now probably be a "wasteland".
     
  20. ELOrocks17

    ELOrocks17 Guest

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    Every frickin lib should be foced to read "Dereliction of Duty" by Lt Col Buzz Patterson. In it he descibes how, as Clintons military aid, the President destroyed our country. it is a very shocking and sad book.
     

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