Safetys

[Get it shawtaay]

Ughhh, I am not a huge fan of Thomas AT ALL! Misses waaaaaay too many tackles!! I'd take probably 6 guys before him. What do you like about him? Have you seen his Oregon tape? He was terrible!

Phillip Thomas vs Oregon 2012 - YouTube

I would caution you from making an opinion of a player based on a single game.



Having said that, I don't care for P. Thomas either.... the way Fresno State used him as a roving defender worries me. In the NFL, unless your name is Troy Polamalu, you don't get your own position and get to blitz or jump routes all day long. Guys like that are hard to project - he doesn't look like a rangy guy, or very instinctive against the pass, or a guy who's size/block shedding translates to playing around the box that much in the NFL. Can he play well in the NFL within the confines of a 1-deep/2-deep scheme? I don't see it.

 

[Pats0204]

I would caution you from making an opinion of a player based on a single game.



Having said that, I don't care for P. Thomas either.... the way Fresno State used him as a roving defender worries me. In the NFL, unless your name is Troy Polamalu, you don't get your own position and get to blitz or jump routes all day long. Guys like that are hard to project - he doesn't look like a rangy guy, or very instinctive against the pass, or a guy who's size/block shedding translates to playing around the box that much in the NFL. Can he play well in the NFL within the confines of a 1-deep/2-deep scheme? I don't see it.

I'm not basing it off one game. the Oregon game was just the most recent example I saw. It's, IMO a common issue with him.....misses a lot of tackles.

 

[Kontradiction]

Earlier in the season, I wondered whether or not Rambo was playing with some undisclosed injury. He seemed to be all over the field for Georgia prior to his 2012 campaign. In that campaign, there were quite a few games in which he just looked awful.

 

[DaBruinz]

If he's as stubborn as you say he is, why did we run the 4-3 this past season, and spend most of it in 4-3 under looks? For that matter, why did we draft a pure 4-3 RDE with our 1st round pick last year? Where do you expect two 5-technique defensive ends are going to magically come from?

You're right. What matter is what Belichick perceives is the best formation available. Which is why we will see more 4-3 under next year.

*sigh* Haven't been around this team much, have you? BB ran the 4-3 2 Gap in 2000 and 2001. Why? Because he didn't have the players he wanted to run the 3-4. The same with last 2 years. He's rebuilding the front 7 so he can put the defense out there that he feels gives his defense the most flexibility. And that is the 3-4 2 Gap. Not the 4-3 "Under".

I hate to break it to you, but Jones is not a "PURE" 4-3 RDE as you claim. At Syracuse, Jones took snaps from the 2 Point stance as well as the 3 point.

Now, most people believe that Armstead can fill in at the RDE position in the 3-4. That leaves Deaderick or Love or someone else for the LDE position. It bumps Ninkovich and Jones to OLBs positions with Vega and Hightower backing them up and Spikes/Mayo inside with Hightower and Fletcher as the key back-ups there.

If the Pats are running the 4-3 Under like you say, then they already have a 5-Tech on the field. Wouldn't adding Armstead (a guy who many see as a 5-tech) give the team 2 5-Techs?

 

[Get it shawtaay]

*sigh* Haven't been around this team much, have you? BB ran the 4-3 2 Gap in 2000 and 2001. Why? Because he didn't have the players he wanted to run the 3-4. The same with last 2 years. He's rebuilding the front 7 so he can put the defense out there that he feels gives his defense the most flexibility. And that is the 3-4 2 Gap. Not the 4-3 "Under".

I hate to break it to you, but Jones is not a "PURE" 4-3 RDE as you claim. At Syracuse, Jones took snaps from the 2 Point stance as well as the 3 point.

Now, most people believe that Armstead can fill in at the RDE position in the 3-4. That leaves Deaderick or Love or someone else for the LDE position. It bumps Ninkovich and Jones to OLBs positions with Vega and Hightower backing them up and Spikes/Mayo inside with Hightower and Fletcher as the key back-ups there.

If the Pats are running the 4-3 Under like you say, then they already have a 5-Tech on the field. Wouldn't adding Armstead (a guy who many see as a 5-tech) give the team 2 5-Techs?

Thanks for enlightening me/telling me a bunch of things I already know.

Armstead is not a 5-tech. Just because he is 6-5 and 300 lbs does not mean he is a 5-tech. Levon Kirkland was 6-1 and 292, does that mean he was a defensive lineman?

Armstead doesn't eat space or hold double teams like a Richard Seymour or a Ty Warren. He's a big fast guy who can get penetration. If he adds a 2-gapping dimension to his game, that would be great. Absolutely wonderful. But that wasn't who he was at USC. Controlling blockers and getting pushed off the ball were the weakest parts of his game in college, and based on what I understand of CFL football, I'm not going to assume that's changed.

And Jones is a RDE just like Vince Wilfork is a NT. He can do other things, but taking him away from what he does best is foolish. The best part of his game is controlling and overpowering tackles, not blowing by them. Putting him next to a 5-tech and trying to use him as some kind of speed rusher is taking him out of the position where his athletic gifts are most useful. And dropping him into coverage would be plain idiocy.

This seems like an agree to disagree situation, but thanks for "breaking it to me"

 

[Water Boy]

Tavon Wilson anyone? It bums me out that Safety is still a major need on this team.

 

[DaBruinz]

Thanks for enlightening me/telling me a bunch of things I already know.

Armstead is not a 5-tech. Just because he is 6-5 and 300 lbs does not mean he is a 5-tech. Levon Kirkland was 6-1 and 292, does that mean he was a defensive lineman?

Armstead doesn't eat space or hold double teams like a Richard Seymour or a Ty Warren. He's a big fast guy who can get penetration. If he adds a 2-gapping dimension to his game, that would be great. Absolutely wonderful. But that wasn't who he was at USC. Controlling blockers and getting pushed off the ball were the weakest parts of his game in college, and based on what I understand of CFL football, I'm not going to assume that's changed.

And Jones is a RDE just like Vince Wilfork is a NT. He can do other things, but taking him away from what he does best is foolish. The best part of his game is controlling and overpowering tackles, not blowing by them. Putting him next to a 5-tech and trying to use him as some kind of speed rusher is taking him out of the position where his athletic gifts are most useful. And dropping him into coverage would be plain idiocy.

This seems like an agree to disagree situation, but thanks for "breaking it to me"

You clearly didn't know what I posted, otherwise you'd have stopped with your replies that are essentially grasping at straws.

Neither Richard Seymour nor Ty Warren played the 5 Tech in College. Both played the 3-Tech. And just because Armstead wasn't 2 Gapping at USC doesn't mean he won't be asked to learn. Why can I say that? Because Seymour, Warren and Wilfork never 2 gapped in college either. Yet, they learned how to do it in this defense. And it was the defense that took them to 2 of the 3 SBs.

BTW, I guess it was plain idiocy for Belichick to drop McGinest into coverage at times. To drop Seymour into Coverage at times. To drop Wilfork back into coverage. So, you'll forgive me if your comment saying that it's "plain idiocy" to drop Jones into coverage holds no water at all. In fact, all it does is show how little you know of this team and the type of defense that it ran during the 2003 and 2004 years.

 

[DaBruinz]

Tavon Wilson anyone? It bums me out that Safety is still a major need on this team.

Safety may not be a major need. It all depends on what Belichick and company plan to do with the Defensive Backs.

 

[Deus Irae]

Tavon Wilson anyone? It bums me out that Safety is still a major need on this team.

The hole at safety is why I want the team to go S/WR, including a tradeup to insure getting a choice of the better players in the top half of round two, with those first two picks.

 

[Pats0204]

The hole at safety is why I want the team to go S/WR, including a tradeup to insure getting a choice of the better players in the top half of round two, with those first two picks.

Agreed I want them to go that route as well (S, WR) but I disagree that a trade up will be necessary unless you're talking specifically about Allen for WR or Vacarro for S. Otherwise, plenty of real good options should be available at both positions.

 

[Pats0204]

Some measureables on the DB's we've been talking about:

DB. Banks 6020 185. Cyprien 6002 217. Elam 5097 208.

Cyprien, a little heavier than listed; Elam a smidge shorter.

 

[Pats0204]

Tyrann Matthieu, the Honey Badger, just checked in at 5086/186.

a little shorter and heavier than listed.

 

[Pats0204]

Although it's only 1/8th of an inch, the fact that Milliner came in under 6'0, at 5117 and 201 lbs, is not good for him. Crazy!

 

[Water Boy]

Safety may not be a major need. It all depends on what Belichick and company plan to do with the Defensive Backs.

What would your solution be? The Dennard situation sucks. I personally don't trust Talib to keep his nose clean if he gets a guaranteed contract. I put no faith in Ras I Dowling being able to stay healthy for an entire season. Right now the only given I have in the secondary is McCourty at safety. In the draft and FA we are potentially looking at needing 2 starting corners and a starting safety. If we can't say with confidence that Wilson can be slotted in as the starter next to McCourty, I'm sorry, I don't see how anyone can consider him a worthwhile pick in the 2nd round

 

[Water Boy]

Although it's only 1/8th of an inch, the fact that Milliner came in under 6'0, at 5117 and 201 lbs, is not good for him. Crazy!

Looks like he's off my draft board. ; )

 

[Pats0204]

What would your solution be? The Dennard situation sucks. I personally don't trust Talib to keep his nose clean if he gets a guaranteed contract. I put no faith in Ras I Dowling being able to stay healthy for an entire season. Right now the only given I have in the secondary is McCourty at safety. In the draft and FA we are potentially looking at needing 2 starting corners and a starting safety. If we can't say with confidence that Wilson can be slotted in as the starter next to McCourty, I'm sorry, I don't see how anyone can consider him a worthwhile pick in the 2nd round

IMO, Wilson needs to be given another year to see before we close the book on him. If we have the same questions about him this time next year as we do today, then yes, I agree, he wasn't worth the 2nd. Until then, let's see what the upcoming season brings.

 

[Pats0204]

My guy, Swearinger, measured a little short; 5104 208. He was listed at 5110 on CBS and 6000 on NFL.com.

Also, Vaccaro came in a full inch shorter than listed, at 6000 even.

 

[Water Boy]

IMO, Wilson needs to be given another year to see before we close the book on him. If we have the same questions about him this time next year as we do today, then yes, I agree, he wasn't worth the 2nd. Until then, let's see what the upcoming season brings.

I can agree with that.

 

[manxman2601]

IMO, Wilson needs to be given another year to see before we close the book on him. If we have the same questions about him this time next year as we do today, then yes, I agree, he wasn't worth the 2nd. Until then, let's see what the upcoming season brings.

I don't understand the panic at safety from some. Wilson should be given more than a rookie year to prove himself, we have a quality safety in McCourty and Gregory isn't great but serviceable. Sign a one or two reasonably priced vets to replace Chung and compete in camp with Gregory and a high upside developmental draft prospect like JJ Wilcox or Swearinger and we'll be alright. There are much greater needs than safety this year.

 

[Deus Irae]

Agreed I want them to go that route as well (S, WR) but I disagree that a trade up will be necessary unless you're talking specifically about Allen for WR or Vacarro for S. Otherwise, plenty of real good options should be available at both positions.

I hear what you're saying. The reason I talk about a trade up is because I don't want BB shopping at Kmart when he could be shopping at Nordstroms.