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Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by mgteich, Feb 26, 2011.

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  1. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There seems little excitement here about drafting a safety in the first 3 rounds to groom for 2012. Some have projected a safety later or a corner to be moved to safety. As of now, I tend to agree.

    I expect that we will re-sign/extend either Meriweather or Sanders after this season. If this happens (as seems likely), and we bring in usual veteran free agent as a backup each year, there seems to be no pressing need at safety.

    STARTERS Meriweather, Chung, Sanders
    (pro-bowler, future pro-bowler, defensive signal caller and Belichick favorite)

    VET BACKUP Page, McGowan or a free agent TBD

    STers Lockett, Brown, Barrett

    Obviously, as Arrington did in 2010, one of the STers could step up for some reps as a position safety.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2011
  2. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    There aren't a lot of Safeties worth a second or third round pick, there are a couple CBs whom I'd be interested in for FS.
  3. MaineMan

    MaineMan Rookie

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    In case it hasn't been previously noted here, Barrett, who was RFA I believe, was signed through 2012 this week.
  4. BillBelichickFan79

    BillBelichickFan79 Rookie

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    Cant see them drafting a safety this year with the subpar class. Only guy I really like is Dowling.

    They have so many safeties already. Meriweather, Chung, Sanders, Brown, Barrett. Page or McGowan could be back too, and Lockett was on IR last year.

    Too many other needs to go safety.

    Personally, I'd shop around the Big Bang Clock. Someone will give you something good for him after coming off back to back "Pro Bowls." Sell high while you can b.c he's not the long term answer at FS
  5. convertedpatsfan

    convertedpatsfan PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    What do you think we could get for Meriweather?

    I think he's good, not great, and doesn't seem to be the long-term answer. We'd lose a bit with Sanders back there, but if we can re-sign McGowan and/or Page, that's a pretty solid group with some young kids in Brown and Barrett.

    I'm sure we won't get more than a 3rd for Meriweather under normal circumstances. At the same time though, with such a weak draft class for safeties, could we get more? Do you think some team would be willing to give up a late 2nd? Is that crazy thinking?
  6. MaineMan

    MaineMan Rookie

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    I don't see us re-signing McGowan. Chung has already surpassed him.

    WRT a Meriweather trade, I don't see a huge market competition for his services at FS.

    DEN? -- Dawkins is old and expensive, but they have McBath. Maybe for vet depth.
    BUF? -- George Wilson(FA), Jarius Byrd. Doubtful.
    CLE? -- They have Elam (FA), Ray Ventrone and Piscitelli. So, maybe.
    SF? -- Goldson (FA), CJ Spillman. Possibly.
    DAL? -- Alan Ball (FA), Danny McCray. Possibly.
    HOU? -- Just let go of Eugene Wilson, but they like Tom Nolan.
    OAK? -- Michael Huff(FA), Hiram Eugene (FA), Stevie Brown[rk]. Possibly.

    So, that's six teams and it might be stretching it for a couple of those. I don't really see any other teams in dire need. Any pick we get seems likely to be a 2012, possibly even conditional. We might not be offered much more than we'd get for him as a compensatory pick in 2013 (3rd or 4th, contingent on a lot of other factors).
  7. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    One could make a similar assessment of each position (with Mankins franchised and Light likely to re-sign). Not saying I agree, but that contention could be made. So the question for this draft is less about filling needs than it is about upgrading the roster. So for safety, are there any candidates that would be an upgrade (immediate or very short-term) over those currently on the roster.

    My take? If Rahim Moore's tackling and Deunta Williams' health check out, I would strongly consider taking them and either bouncing Sanders (immediate upgrade) or trading Meriweather (roster management if not willing to re-sign him). Moore may take #33 but Williams may slide precipitously due to a poor senior season (mostly not his fault) and a nasty injury.
  8. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Rookie

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    #3 Jersey

    Good thinking.

    Moore and Williams are about the only two guys I'd go for...As of the moment, I'm inclined to see how Stomper does under Patricia, because he's only had the one year at Free Safety, and because he's going into a contract year...and because I don't like this Free Safety class very much.

    If he evolves, we can sign him to a long term deal OR Franchise him and move him at a REALLY high price.

    I actually think most Patriot fans underestimate his Value on the Trade Market: I think we can pick up a 2nd Rounder and change for him...perhaps more.

    And if we ride with'm, and trade'm a year, hence?? Consecutive 2nd Rounders, is my sense, AND change!! And perhaps scoop up Kenny Tate with one'f'm.
  9. convertedpatsfan

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    #12 Jersey

    Thanks for the dose of reality. Depressing, but much needed. Unless of course we can get crazy Al to make a bid so he could make Meriweather the highest-paid safety in the league.

    I'd rather have Page than McGowan, but I wouldn't be opposed to both if this trade happened. I like the idea of re-signing McGowan if we traded Meriweather because he was pretty good in coverage on TEs, and with Sanders filling the FS spot, there would be a role for McGowan. Plus I think (hope?) he would be cheap coming back from his injury.
  10. Box_O_Rocks

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    Interesting, one might make the argument athletically for an upgrade over Sanders, yet I fail to see an upgrade for the more challenging mental aspects of the position. One could make a case for Chung showing a fair grasp of this role, but I do not believe he's yet a match for Sanders as a Field General ... I don't think it necessary to dwell on Meriweather's performance. Adding another youngster is fine, but I think from an organizational perspective it falls well short of an upgrade (especially when I think back upon Moore's performance in the games I observed).

    Tangentially: Bodden returns and pairs with Sanders in the veteran role and McCourty in the coverage assignment. Should NE elect to draft another young CB to develop and compete with Butler, Arrington, and Wilhite, one possible future might see Meriweather gone in Free Agency, Bodden moved to FS, and one of the youngsters teamed with McCourty.
  11. MaineMan

    MaineMan Rookie

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    This is never out of the question. :D

    I don't know about Page, yet. If he was really good, I'd think we'd have seem more of him. I saw him out of position and racing to catch up a few times - notably Arrington's pick-six appeared to be the result of Page making a panic move to get to where he was supposed to be covering. He didn't seems to make as much of an impact on special teams as, say, Sergio Brown. And there's also a question for me about his "injury proneness." If he's asking for reasonable money (less than what Sanders is scheduled to make, certainly), then I'd be all in favor of re-signing him for camp at least.


    I keep hearing this, but, really, the only instance I saw was him "shutting down" Scheffler in the Denver game. Other than that, he seemed to screw up coverage assignments quite often, most particularly in the loss @MIA in wk-13, 2009. That said, he was a huge contributor on ST in '09 and certainly our best DB in run support. When Rice broke his 80-yd TD at the start of the playoff game, IIRC, McGowan wasn't on the field. Meriweather appeared to miss his gap assignment and then whiffed trying to make the arm tackle. I remember thinking at the time that McGowan probably would've stopped that play for little or no gain.

    In any case, Chung appears to play the run about as well as McGowan did and Chung's coverage, though not great, seems already to have passed McGowan - so McGowan seems a bit redundant at this point. My guess is that the Pats let McGowan walk and take a possible low-round 2012 comp pick for him. That's assuming that we shore up the D-line so they can be more effective stopping the run again.
  12. convertedpatsfan

    convertedpatsfan PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    I agree, he was up and down. But I do think a year in the system will help, especially since he didn't join us until right before the season started. But yes, it'd have to be reasonable.

    He did a nice job against Tony Gonzalez vs. Atlanta as well, albeit with some help. Then again, I can't think of many safeties who wouldn't need some help with that match-up. He was definitely lost at times though, which is why Sanders eventually took back the starting job. BB mentioned a lack of communication as an issue with the secondary when Sanders was out. But if Meriweather was traded and Sanders took over the FS spot, then McGowan doesn't carry that responsibility. And again, first year in the system. Sounds a bit like a lame excuse but I think he would be better.

    I agree with all of that. Just thinking if Meriweather was gone, he might have more of a role for us. I'm really excited about Chung's progress. Still has some work to do as a running back (ugh), but I think he'll have a big year.
  13. MaineMan

    MaineMan Rookie

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    IIRC (and I might not be), part of Sanders being out was that he was injured for awhile there. It may not have been the case that he "lost/regained" the starting job to McGowan based entirely on performance.
  14. Seneschal2

    Seneschal2 Rookie

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    As my sig implies, upgrading any level of the roster is the objective when considering all personnel evaluations. The confusing part for fans is not being privy to the real performance evaluations, along with all $$$ concerns revolving around contract statuses.

    Certainly the Pats can upgrade the bottom of the roster (Safety included), but regarding the top of the Safety position, is BB truly content with Meri's on-field performance? Is he a risk/reward player -- a hard hitter but subject to mental errors? Bottom line, is he giving BB what he wants from that position? And are there any concerns over his contract status?

    I'm not suggesting Meri will be traded (or ought to be)...just using him as an example of how we really don't know the accurate evaluations of each player, making it difficult to determine the overall quality of positional depth. We can only speculate -- as it's what we do here. But I'm still left with numerous questions concerning roster evaluations -- unless we're running the show. :confused2: :D
  15. convertedpatsfan

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    #12 Jersey

    Sanders was injured around week 5, but he lost the starting job week 2 and regained it week 14 after losses to the Saints and Dolphins where the pass defense was atrocious and there were several blown coverages.

    James Sanders on the safety competition: ?It?s going to be interesting to see what happens.?
  16. Ochmed Jones

    Ochmed Jones Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    It could be very difficult to upgrade the top of our safety depth with guys available in this draft.
  17. MaineMan

    MaineMan Rookie

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  18. VJCPatriot

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    Too bad Kenny Tate didn't declare. He looked intriguing. Might have to put off upgrading safety for another year if there's nobody worth taking. The thing about safeties is that you don't necessarily have to use a high pick to find a good one. James Sanders was only a 4th rounder for example.
  19. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Rookie

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    Indeed, sir.

    Much as I like the idea of Selling High on a guy who is almost certainly not true Patriot material, I do not see a guy in this Class who looks like he's got the potential impact that Stomper brings...with the exception, of course, of the likes of Patrick Paterson, the pursuit of whom would defeat the entire purpose of Selling High.

    No, I would much rather let Stomper play a second year at his new position, with a MUCH steadier crew around him, as will be the case, and do so under a good coach ~ Patricia ~ and in a Contract Year.

    I believe he's going to have a MONSTER season for us, and help us win Super Bowl Ring #4.

    And at the end of the year, we can reevaluate, and either lock him up...or Franchise him and reap a SERIOUS Bounty.
  20. Sciz

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    I agree with that for the most part. Moving Patricia to safeties coach seems like a move to get more out of the talent at that position, so I think of it as trying to salvage Meriweather's career here, rather than getting one more undisciplined year out of him and then watching him walk.
  21. MaineMan

    MaineMan Rookie

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    Don't know that it re-opens any discussion, but it's possibly worth noting in this context that Page was given a 2nd round tender today (3/3/11), FWIW.
  22. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #50 Jersey

    I think that one of the reasons Page was given a 2nd round tender was because of the draft class.
  23. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Weddle can be had for a #1. A big upgrade over anything we have now.
    I don't run this Team but if you can get a second for Merriweather and a fourth for Sanders, I take Weddle....now. Remember 30th in passing yards against. FYI The Chargers were first in passing yards against and Weddle was the QB of the DBs. Also 96 tackles.
    DW Toys
  24. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree.

    There wasn't much in the draft. So, Belichick signed Barrett to a long-term contract and now gave Page a tender. I also like Page. I think that we are in very good shape with
    Meriweather, Sanders, Chung and Page.
    Barrett, Brown and Lockett



  25. furley

    furley Rookie

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    With OJ Atogwe signing with Washington and Eric Weddle likely to re-sign with San Diego, I expect New England to draft a future starting free safety to replace Brandon Meriweather if they don't target Dashon Goldson after a new CBA is in place.

    If they should draft a free safety, it could be either Quinton Carter or Deunta Williams or somebody else in a later rounds like Joe Lefeged.
  26. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    The way I see it is if we stand pat we are not keeping up. Merriweather has the most pure talent but write this down, his agent will rape the Pats for his "Pro Bowl" Safety in 2012. Sanders who is a third rotation guy is scheduled to make almost $3m. I would not be shocked to see him as a CAP cut, nice 2010 year non-withstanding.

    You are all correct. This is a weak Safety class. If you can sign a superior player like Weddle for your 28th pick (I know Seymour is the #17 result but I look at it this way the Seymour trade brought us back a top tier defensive player), you have a significant upgrade who is only 26 and can Team with Chung for years. Chung is still learning but I don't think anyone on this forum will doubt he has more upside than Sanders or Merriweather.

    Please I know we had a mediocre pass rush but SD was not on the top of that list either. Only Phillips made the top 40 with sacks. Yet..........Their D was #1 in passing yards against.We were 30th. Weddle was purely the quarterback on their defensive backfield. He alone had almost 100 tackles. I will be called out of my mind, but I give up #28 for Weddle and try to get a second for Merriweather and something for Sanders and I am set with Weddle and Chung and Page and Barrett.

    A major upgrade over Merriweather and Sanders. Plus between this year on Sanders salary and next year on Merriweathers "want or ask", maybe the least expensive end result.

    You Cousins tell me at #28 who you can guarantee me that the kid will be better than Weddle who is an upper tier NFL player, as to what said kid can bring more to the Team offensively or defensively? I see a wise choice for #28. You see it as a wasted first rounder you can pick up a Ayers or someone who might not even start. Is that a fair statement?

    The question is are Sanders and Merriweather upgradable? Absolutely. I see Weddle as better than either. Is he Ronnie Lott? No, but he is younger than Sanders and more capable of setting up the DBs than Merriweather.
    DW Toys
    Last edited: Mar 4, 2011
  27. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    You haven't liked SANDERS since he arrived. He calls the defensive signals. He's here to stay as part of a 3-man safety rotation.

    MERIWEATHER has done his job also. He will likely be gone after this season. Hyperbole isn't necessary. He will not "rape" the patriots. It is very likely that another team will pay hime more than we are willing to pay.

    So, we have CHUNG and SANDERS for 2012. We also have 3 youngsters who are now playing special teams: Brown, Barrett and Lockett.

    Finally, we have PAGE who very possibly might be one of the three man rotation for 2012.

    BOTTOM LINE
    This is the year where we would get a safety through the draft to develop for 2012. The players just aren't there. If we are to get a safety from free agency, we could either get one this year (and trade Meriweather) or wait until next year. There really is no particular reason to act now unless Belichick finds great value.

    Belichick often acts one year earlier than others with declining veterans. Meriweather is NOT such a player. There is not urgency to trade him. We could just as well get one more year of service and take the compensatory pick.




  28. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Disable Jersey

    Just to follow this up a bit. It needs to be remembered that we're talking about safeties here. Only tight ends and P/K get less money when franchised. The Patriots could easily franchise Meriweather next year (2010 franchise tag for a safety: $6.455m) and pull a safety out of that draft, if BB doesn't want to give Meriweather a long term deal.
  29. DW Toys

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    Fair enough.
    DW Toys
  30. jcdavey

    jcdavey Rookie

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    the chargers #1 pass D was a smokescreen, watch the bengals game

    as for getting a 1st rounder for weddle, i'd love it , i like weddle but if some team wants to give a 1st for him, cool with me
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