Ryan Style Defense - Why it gives the Pats trouble

[DaedalusX]

I posted this in the Bart Scott thread, but frankly that thread sucks and I didn't want it getting lost in there. So here are my thoughts on this matter:

It's kind of like a DDoS attack with these defenses versus Brady. The truth of the matter is, the Patriots O-line isn't good. It hasn't been good for years. Brady has made them look far, far better than they are by making excellent pre-snap adjustments. However, when facing defenses that keep things in constant motion -- that require too much monitoring all the way up to the snap for even Brady to calmly process -- he will get mentally overloaded, and the O-line will get beaten because it doesn't have the physicality or athleticism to compensate for a breakdown in the protection call.

Look at teams that regularly beat the Ravens defense. It's teams that are more physical, that can adjust for a missed protection/block call by simply being bigger, faster, younger, stronger. Or a QB (or RB) that is just damn hard to take down (give Roethlisberger his due).

The Ravens (Ryan) style defense is the mirror of the Brady style offense. It's extremely intelligent, relies on everyone being in sync with one bark of the field captain, constant pre-snap adjustments and concealment, and a great deal of athleticism to make perfect execution look like near magic. But it all starts with a very beefy line that has the talent and intelligence to react when things go wrong.

The Pats defense isn't their problem this year (it was blatantly the problem through most of 2007 and didn't step up to the plate when it counted in the SB). Other than Brady, and his timing with his receivers, it's entirely, 100% the o-line just not being very good without Brady thinking for them.

 

[ausbacker]

The Giants exposed the O-Line in the Superbowl and other teams are mirroring that in their game planning against the Patriots. The mitigating circumstance is having the cattle to implement that outcome against the Patriots, which most defenses don't.

 

[David Deas]

The Giants exposed the O-Line in the Superbowl and other teams are mirroring that in their game planning against the Patriots. The mitigating circumstance is having the cattle to implement that outcome against the Patriots, which most defenses don't.

Nearly every team after the Patriots faced the Eagles in 2007 "had the cattle"

 

[tanked_as_usual]

because the pats have become more like the colts

the pats are not designed to go up against physical teams

 

[ausbacker]

Nearly every team after the Patriots faced the Eagles in 2007 "had the cattle"

Strahan, Tuck, Umenyiora, Kiwanuka quality. I think not.

 

[klinefan]

This is a good post.

So much for "IBBWT". He has drafted tiny, weak, pathetic lineman who can't possibly block these huge lineman. I actually though they did relatively well, it's just that Brady couldn't hit a WR, and when he did half the time they'd drop it.

Question is...why doesn't mr. mastermiind BB do something like that on defense? Biggest thread our defense poses is making the offenses they face fall asleep!!

 

[TheComeback]

You lost me where you claimed that our defense in 2007 was the "blatant" problem. It is not up to our defense to determine how the opponent plays. They executed when teams passed and they executed when they ran. That's all that counts. EDIT: Go ahead and bring up the Superbowl if you're a chicken little, but I seem to remember a lot of big plays by our D that many have forgotten. I'm thinking about plays like Colvin's forced fumble on Manning to keep us undefeated as an example)

And yes, our Oline is overrated. They are an above-average group at best. At times they are excellent, but consistency seems to be a big issue. They're really just a bunch of big, smart guys that Scarnecchia has coaced up. That's why they get beat by top of the shelf DL like Schobel and Tuck.

 

[unoriginal]

The only team I can recall that consistently has beaten the Ravens is the Indianapolis Colts.

Going back to 2002 the Colts are 6-0 against Baltimore and have outscored them 156 - 66.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

You lost me where you claimed that our defense in 2007 was the "blatant" problem. It is not up to our defense to determine how the opponent plays. They executed when teams passed and they executed when they ran. That's all that counts. EDIT: Go ahead and bring up the Superbowl if you're a chicken little, but I seem to remember a lot of big plays by our D that many have forgotten. I'm thinking about plays like Colvin's forced fumble on Manning to keep us undefeated as an example)

And yes, our Oline is overrated. They are an above-average group at best. At times they are excellent, but consistency seems to be a big issue. They're really just a bunch of big, smart guys that Scarnecchia has coaced up. That's why they get beat by top of the shelf DL like Schobel and Tuck.

To correct the record, Green's forced fumble against Peyton and Colvin's fumble recovery - but you make a cogent and oft ignored point (pity Rosy was lost to IR).

I'm puzzled how NE's O-line is "overrated?" The NE fan base is pathetically eager to enumerate their faults and magnify their failures. Light has made two Pro-Bowls, while Mankins and Koppen have one each - it's common to describe the Pro-Bowl as a popularity contest, and to some extent it is, but two-thirds of the vote still comes from NFL players and NFL coaches, I'd still imagine they vote most often for the players who give them the greatest trouble in games.

DaedalusX: It's an interesting hypothesis, but would you be kind enough to list those offensive lines who regularly defeat Baltimore? Reviewing the teams in their own division, only Pittsburgh is such a team and I'd be curious as to how much of that you wish to credit to their O-line in those games?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

The only team I can recall that consistently has beaten the Ravens is the Indianapolis Colts.

Going back to 2002 the Colts are 6-0 against Baltimore and have outscored them 156 - 66.

Warped minds pondering the same question.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Question, Box? Stop drinking the kool-aid, it was an answer.

That magnificent Colts O-line makes Manning look good.

Well, the pre-Ugoh line did a pretty decent job with that.

 

[DaedalusX]

The only team I can recall that consistently has beaten the Ravens is the Indianapolis Colts.

Going back to 2002 the Colts are 6-0 against Baltimore and have outscored them 156 - 66.

The Steelers are a regular pain in the ass for the Ravens, which the advantage generally going to the Steelers. The Steelers are basically a bigger, stronger, slower version of the Ravens.

And that really demonstrates my point well. You take the Steelers defense, which doesn't mask its moves nearly as well as the Ravens, and Tom Brady has them for lunch every time. He wins pre-snap by giving the O-line a better chance than by talent it should have. The Ravens, however, eat it alive.

You take the Ravens defense and put it up against the Steelers O-line and QB, who is not doing the same amount of pre-snap adjustments as Brady, and the Steelers often hold them off long enough for Roethlisberger to make a play. It's entirely because the Ravens get bullied at the line, which they will even often admit is the biggest problem. It's not pre-snap protection calls, it's the beef.

If Brady wants to be back in the shotgun and face Rex Ryan type defenses, he needs to be behind a far beefier line.

 

[unoriginal]

Warped minds pondering the same question.

Question, Box? Stop drinking the kool-aid, it was an answer!

That magnificent Colts O-line makes Manning look good.

 

[unoriginal]

You take the Ravens defense and put it up against the Steelers O-line and QB, who is not doing the same amount of pre-snap adjustments as Brady, and the Steelers often hold them off long enough for Roethlisberger to make a play. It's entirely because the Ravens get bullied at the line, which they will even often admit is the biggest problem. It's not pre-snap protection calls, it's the beef.

If Brady wants to be back in the shotgun and face Rex Ryan type defenses, he needs to be behind a far beefier line.

I have never seen a Steelers-Ravens game where the Ravens have had problems getting pressure on Ben Roethlisberger.

To be fair, the people who have the most explaining to do are the ones who said the Pats lose because they are a finesse team and "are turning into the Colts."

My personal opinion is that the key to the complete success of the Colts and the partial success of the Steelers are tight ends like Dallas Clark and Heath Miller.

 

[MassPats38]

Nearly every team after the Patriots faced the Eagles in 2007 "had the cattle"

It's called match-ups, and every NFL team encounters some other teams that present matchup problems. Light has problems with probably the top 4 speed rushers in the NFL. He is not quick but can handle the bull rush defensive linemen. The Giants' defensive line was outstanding, plain and simple. And without Neal, the O-line loses interior strength and it showed that game.

I would give the starting O-line above average to good status, but with Brady that should be enough as he doesn't sit on the ball and wait for defenders to sack him. In the salary cap era, you find decent linemen meeting basic requirements, give them a good O-line coach (Pats have one of the best), and teach them plays and coordination. Otherwise, pay for All-Pro talent acrosss the line and find you cannot afford a QB, a defense or receivers.

 

[DaedalusX]

I have never seen a Steelers-Ravens game where the Ravens have had problems getting pressure on Ben Roethlisberger.

To be fair, the people who have the most explaining to do are the ones who said the Pats lose because they are a finesse team and "are turning into the Colts."

My personal opinion is that the key to the complete success of the Colts and the partial success of the Steelers are tight ends like Dallas Clark and Heath Miller.

Doesn't sound like you've seen many of their games then. I grew up in Baltimore and I'm pretty positive I have watched every single Steelers - Ravens matchup since 2000. The post-game breakdown is always something along the lines of "got bullied at the line, couldn't get pressure the whole game", with the offense doing the Ravens defense no favors for TOP.

There are some games where the Ravens seem to really take it to the Steelers, but more often than not those are times when the Steelers have personnel problems (Roethlisberger playing injured, etc). Last year the Steelers contained the Ravens 3 times, once in the AFCCG. Roethlisberger had time to make plays, sometimes BIG pass plays.

 

[LaserLee83]

Brady's busted knee probably doesn't help much, either

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Doesn't sound like you've seen many of their games then. I grew up in Baltimore and I'm pretty positive I have watched every single Steelers - Ravens matchup since 2000. The post-game breakdown is always something along the lines of "got bullied at the line, couldn't get pressure the whole game", with the offense doing the Ravens defense no favors for TOP.

There are some games where the Ravens seem to really take it to the Steelers, but more often than not those are times when the Steelers have personnel problems (Roethlisberger playing injured, etc). Last year the Steelers contained the Ravens 3 times, once in the AFCCG. Roethlisberger had time to make plays, sometimes BIG pass plays.

I'd recheck your memory.

-- Toothless was sacked 46 times in the 2008 regular season - 6 times by the Ravens.
-- 47 times in 2007
-- 46 times in 2006
-- 23 times in 2005

People went ape because Cassel was sacked 47 times in 2008.
-- Brady 26 in 2005
-- 26 in 2006
-- 21 in 2007

I'd say your Steelers example is not the O-line NE should be emulating if they want to keep Brady alive.

 

[RayClay]

I'm struggling to recall the great offensive lines we had during our three Superbowls. I'm not arguing you can't invest in five great expensive linemen and pass all game, just that ours was cheaper with more free agents, as I recall.

Better balance and play calling variety? Those things I seem to remember.

 

[nabwong]

Correct me if I'm wrong. What you've highlighted is exactly the reason why we are so bad at running the ball most times. We just get bullied at the line. However, I think one of the advantages is that we can take advantage of down the field blocking i.e. screens. But I'm just surprised that we didn't use that more in the jets game since it's so obvious that Ryan was gonna go after Brady. (HB screens, not WR screens)