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Rookie, 2nd, & 3rd Year Player Expectations

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Simple Jack's Brother, Jun 11, 2012.

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  1. Simple Jack's Brother

    Simple Jack's Brother Rookie

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    Since there's almost nothing to discuss right now and I'm going to Gronk a baby if I have to read any more news about OchoCinco, I thought it'd be fun to bring out the amateur scout in all of us. What are people's realistic (or unrealistic) expectations for the young guns on the team?

    In no particular order:
    -Does Mccourty have a bounce back season?
    -Does Ras-I give us a physical outside presence in the secondary?
    -How many footballs is Gronk going to break this year?
    -Will Hernandez top the 1000 yard receiving mark?
    -Does Solder make the seamless transition to fulltime LT and keep Brady clean?
    -Why is the Marcus Cannon only practicing at tackle when he was clearly marked as a guard practice coming out of school, and our interior has so many Q's?
    -Does the transition back to a 3-4 (don't forget that's the direction they went in the playoffs) helpe Jermaine Cunningham improve upon a decent rookie season, or did he show his true colors last year?
    -Does Vereen or Ridley win the "primary" ball carrier role?
    -Does Sterling Moore cement himself as a true playmaker in the secondary?
    -How long will it take Chandler Jones, Hightower, and Bequette to make an impact on the field?
    -Will Alfonzo Dennard make his presence felt in the secondary at all? He seems to be around the ball all the time.

    Feel free to add scenarios as you see fit. I just really want to talk about OUR TEAM ON THE FIELD again. :)
  2. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

    A good set of questions to pass the time with

    In no particular order:
    -Does Mccourty have a bounce back season?\
    Yes and he will get the great majority of his snaps at the outside CB

    -Does Ras-I give us a physical outside presence in the secondary?
    Yes, If healthy Dowling will be big CB who can man up on the other team's #1 WR. He will have a HUGE impact on the secondary.

    -How many footballs is Gronk going to break this year?
    10-12, He'll see more coverage in the red zone this season, and the Pats have added other threats that will take some of the looks he gets away

    -Will Hernandez top the 1000 yard receiving mark?
    No, but I won't be surprised if he isn't in the 800 yd range. If he gets to the 1000 yard area, it will be because he is taking looks away from Welker

    Does Solder make the seamless transition to fulltime LT and keep Brady clean?
    This is easiest question you asked and surest bet to come true. Solder did a remarkable job coming in without an off season and playing so many snaps at 3 positions in his rookie year. It wasn't flawless, but he is going to be better than Matt Light, and I really appreciated Matt Light

    -Why is the Marcus Cannon only practicing at tackle when he was clearly marked as a guard practice coming out of school, and our interior has so many Q's?
    I was looking forward to seeing be the big "power" RG we haven't had in recent years, but the potential need to have someone ready to back up Volmer outweighs the ideal situation which would be at RG. If Volmer's back healed well this off season, maybe he can go back to G next season after Water's retirement. Meanwhile, he didn't do badly in his opportunities at RT, given his trials his first year.

    -Does the transition back to a 3-4 (don't forget that's the direction they went in the playoffs) helpe Jermaine Cunningham improve upon a decent rookie season, or did he show his true colors last year?
    We will be in both the 3-4 and 4-3 depending on the match ups week to week I think Cunninngham was one of those players hurt by the lockout. This off season he's been in NE full time and I'm hoping we see a big difference in his play.

    -Does Vereen or Ridley win the "primary" ball carrier role?
    Yes, I think if they are healthy, we will be very happy with those 2 guys as our primary RB's

    -Does Sterling Moore cement himself as a true playmaker in the secondary?
    I really don't know what to expect of Moore. He played better last season than anyone had a right to expect. He could just be one of those guys who will make a big jump with a full off season in the system.....Maybe he won't.

    -How long will it take Chandler Jones, Hightower, and Bequette to make an impact on the field?
    Jones will take the longest. He is the youngest and least experienced. He is also making the toughest transition from a college DE to someone who will need to play standing up a good percentage of time. I think they'll give him snaps as a DE in 4-3 pass rush D to help him ease into being an OLB

    Beguette will be a one trick pony in the Mark Anderson role. Hightower should make the most immediate impact in any one of the several positions he's going to be asked to play.


    -Will Alfonzo Dennard make his presence felt in the secondary at all? He seems to be around the ball all the time.

    I'm just hoping he makes the team. His lack of success at the combine and senior bowl worry me a lot more than his fight with the off duty cop. He could play an important roll as a physical presence in the slot and CB depth if he pans out.

    Now I have a question. When is Ian going to add the Quote and bold features that virtually every other site have. Features that would make answering post like this and responding to specific items in other people's posts much easier. Especially for those of us who are keyboard challenged ;)
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012
  3. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    One point worth noting: like most of the Pats OL, Cannon played LT in college, and by all accounts did a very good job protecting Andy Dalton.

    I'm wondering if the Pats always saw him as an OT first, and an OG second, rather than the other way around.
  4. nashvillepatsfan

    nashvillepatsfan Rookie

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  5. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    [​IMG]

    Pro-Bowl selections. All of them.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012
  6. SwedishPat

    SwedishPat Banned

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    Is it just me that didn't like Solder that much last year? I thought he had bad footwork and got beaten by ends/olbs alot because he was to slow in his feets. I am hopefull that he has improved in this area a lot during offseason as it is far from impossible. But I think you will notice that Matt is gone on LT.
  7. BlueThunder

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    Nate Solder playing LT?

    Hur svårt kan det vara? :D
  8. Rob0729

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    I am no draftnick, but him not producing in the Senior Bowl and particularly the combines don't scare me all that much. He hurt himself in the Senior Bowl that could have affected his play. The lingering affects could have affected his combine numbers.

    Besides, I think people put too much stock in the Senior Bowl and combines. We see all the time a player who has an unremarkable career and then explodes in the Senior Bowl and/or Combines and shoots up the draft board only to end up an NFL bust. We also hear about a player who was a stud his entire college career and drops on the draft boards because of a bad Senior Bowl and/or Combines and becomes a steal.

    The Senior Bowl is one game. I cannot ignore what a player did his entire college career because of his performance in one game.

    I am optimistic about Dennard. You take away the Senior Bowl and his arrest, he would have probably gone in the second round. Doesn't mean he will pan out and being a low round pick he will not have the time a second round pick would have to prove himself.
  9. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Nice comments, Ken. I'd change only a few things:

  10. ay-yo

    ay-yo Rookie

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    -Does Mccourty have a bounce back season?Yup.

    -Does Ras-I give us a physical outside presence in the secondary?Yup

    -How many footballs is Gronk going to break this year?
    14

    -Will Hernandez top the 1000 yard receiving mark?No but he will be close.

    -Does Solder make the seamless transition to fulltime LT and keep Brady clean?
    Yup

    -Why is the Marcus Cannon only practicing at tackle when he was clearly marked as a guard practice coming out of school, and our interior has so many Q's?Vollmer's back

    -Does the transition back to a 3-4 (don't forget that's the direction they went in the playoffs) helpe Jermaine Cunningham improve upon a decent rookie season, or did he show his true colors last year?He showed his true colors last season

    -Does Vereen or Ridley win the "primary" ball carrier role?
    No. I see them splitting carries with roughly equal PT

    -Does Sterling Moore cement himself as a true playmaker in the secondary?
    No.

    -How long will it take Chandler Jones, Hightower, and Bequette to make an impact on the field?
    I think Jones and Hightower are day 1 starters. Bequette will be used as a sub rusher and he should excel in this role.

    -Will Alfonzo Dennard make his presence felt in the secondary at all? He seems to be around the ball all the time.
    Dennard will make the team as a talented backup. If all goes to plan we won't need him too much.
  11. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    #91 Jersey

  12. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    Oh I don't doubt that Cannon has the capability to play OT,CT and Volmer's back issues might make it necessary to have him play sooner rather than later.. But when he was drafted a lot of guys thought that he was the ideal guy to play that RG position. At 350 lbs he'd would have given the Pats a power presence they haven't had at there before. The thought of he and Volmer as a ruin blocking duo, was very enticing. But given the presence of Waters and Connolly, and the lack of depth at tackle, need overcomes the luxury of having him there. Maybe next year. ;)
  13. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    I care less about the Combine numbers. The Combine is used mostly to confirm information you already have. But the Senior Bowl is more important. Its just a week, but its a week of full pads, going against top competition and with NFL coaching. A good or poor showing in that arena is more telling than the Combine.

    Now I didn't know or have heard that he was dinged during that week. It might have made a difference. Still the more I have heard about the altercation with the off duty cop, the more I think his slide to the 7th round had more to due with perceived talent than off field issues

    I am hopeful that he works out, but I am less hopeful than many.
  14. patfanken

    patfanken Rookie

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    A couple of rebuts

    1. The only time we will see McCourty at S, will be in specific sub packages or injuries

    2. I have to admit I am a bit concerned about Cannon as a pass defender. At almost 360 lbs, I worry about him against speed rushers. Its a worry I wouldn't have if he were playing OG. But only time will tell. His brief showing last year, didn't prove him to be deficient at pass blocking, but it was too small of a sample to really tell.

    3. I still think that this team is a base 3-4 team, especially when they are teaching basic techniques. I know they have been aligned in a 4-3 a great deal of the time in recent years, but I think that was more a necessity than a philosophical change. I don't think we've suddenly become a 'one gap' attack first team. Still it will be an interesting item to follow since we certainly brought in a lot of players who fit that one gap criteria.

    4. I don't doubt that Jones and Hightower will get a lot of run in their first year. The word "starter" on this defense has almost no meaning on this defense. More players are going to be run in and out of that lineup than the Park St. MBTA stop at rush hour. I think 40-50% of the defensive snaps would be a good number....and you are dead right about Beguette. He and Scott will be fighting for the Anderson role in this defense.

    5. I'm a bit less optimistic about Dennard than most Pats fans. First I have to get over my bias against 5'10 CBs in general, and that Senior bowl fiasco still bothers me, even though I know it was just one week out of a 3 year career.

    like I said before, given what we know now about "the fight", I think his drop was more about perceived talent than this off season altercation. This isn't to say that because he was closer to being perceived as 7th round talent than a 2nd round talent, doesn't mean he won't turnout to be an effective player. It more a matter of managing expectations
  15. Simple Jack's Brother

    Simple Jack's Brother Rookie

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    3. Agreed, i know they're in a sub defense almost 1/2 the time and they're more accurately a "week to week, game plan specific defense", but i think they're a base 3-4 when teaching techniques. I think the base being a 3-4 will give our defense the ability to disguise the play a little bit more.

    5. I'm definitely bias again 5'10" corners as well, and i think Field Yates said he was disappointed when he finally got to size up Dennard and said something along the lines of "he's stockier than i thought"...but i've also read that he's been around the ball and is still very physical at the line. Also, i think a lot of people overlook the fact that at the Senior Bowl, the coaches were having him play a different technique than he had been playing his whole career (I believe they were playing off zone vs normally playing man coverage, not positive tho).
  16. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    I think Chandler Jones will be a real factor in year 1. Reports of his rawness are overstated. Maybe he's raw mentally, I don't know, but the physical skillset that he brings to the table right now is rare in the college game.

    All the other college pass rushers are trying to just run past the tackle. He can use his hands and have his way with OL. He's a freak.

    I will be shocked if Belichick can't find a way to use Jones in a manner that makes him a productive first year player. Maybe he won't be Mayo level impact, but I can see him being like Spikes, someone who certainly makes his mark in his rookie year, get some real reps, also making some mistakes as well. And then, down the road, the upside is probably much higher than Mayo to be honest. Hightower, I can see being an immediate staple like Mayo.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012
  17. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Read more: Dennard Injured During Senior Bowl Workout | KETV Home - KETV Home

    The thing is that I forgot about. He didn't even play in the game. He wasn't practicing well for the game and then pulled out after an injury. So he got downgraded because of a few bad practices Senior Bowl week, not the game itself.
  18. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    My rebuts to your rebut.

  19. Simple Jack's Brother

    Simple Jack's Brother Rookie

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    Ha, Butts...giggity.
  20. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    Pretty much everything's already been said at this point, but re: Hernandez I'd point out that he did miss two games last season. If he plays all 16, then I think 1,000 yards is very attainable for him.
  21. BradyFTW!

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    Agreed. Players and coaches have described in the past how the Patriots bring guys like this along: they give him a couple of core responsibilities and the time to become effective at them, so that these types of players can contribute right away in some capacity. The versatility that we'll eventually see from him will come later, but I do expect that he will contribute this year in a more limited, one-dimensional capacity. He's too athletic and skilled not to.

    Besides, this time last year everyone was saying that Solder was too raw to contribute as a rookie, and the year before that nobody could figure out why they took a ST-specialist in McCourty. Pats' first round picks pretty much always contribute immediately, regardless of whether or not the pundits think they'll be able to. In general, it takes truly freakish athleticism for a developmental project to go in the first round. If you're picking a guy that high, you're usually pretty confident that he can contribute to your team this year.

    As long as we're talking about rookies at positions of need, Jones is not high on my list of worries. Tavon Wilson is the one who I have my fingers crossed for.
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2012
  22. Simple Jack's Brother

    Simple Jack's Brother Rookie

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    Completely agree with that statement. I think it's not unrealistic for us to expect 6-8 sacks out of him as a rookie because he will probably start as a situational pass rusher and gradually be given more responsibilities. I have a feeling Trevor Scott will be a nice surprise tho.

    Hightower i'm really intrigued to see what they do with him. All i have to say is i DARE other teams to run on us when Spikes and Hightower are both in the game. :)
  23. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Two very good posts. I completely agree. The Pats won't put themselves in a position where they have to rely on Jones' development if they can help it, but they will find ways to use him right away and will give him as much responsibility as he shows himself able to handle. As BradyFTW! notes, Solder and McCourty both exceeded expectations about their ability to step in and start, and I suspect Jones will do the same.

    I also agree that all this stuff about Jones being "raw" is over-stated. There were two very good pre-draft profiles on Chandler Jones which highlighted his hand technique and mature pass rush repertoire. Mike Tanier noted this in his Shutdown 50 evaluation of Jones:

    The Shutdown 50

    Drew Boylhart of the Huddle Report noted:

    2010 NFL DRAFT

    As BradyManny notes, Jones has advanced hand usage skills combined with length and strength, and the ability to get his arms up and disrupt passing lanes. He's not a one trick pony speed rusher. I don't know what kind of sack numbers he'll put up as a rookie, but I suspect he'll end up getting on the field a good bit more than Jermaine Cunningham did in 2010 and will have a significant impact when he does play, regardless of his stats.
  24. BradyManny

    BradyManny Rookie

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    Agreed. I think Ninja had tape up of four or five of Jones' games, and it's hard to watch those and not be excited.

    And hopefully next February it'll be an opposing Quarterback playing us saying "it's like throwing through trees..."
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2012
  25. borg

    borg Rookie

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    -Does Mccourty have a bounce back season?........No.....Did he undergo some life altering change this offseason? Teams picked on him for a reason....and BB bounced from CB for a reason

    -Does Ras-I give us a physical outside presence in the secondary?.....Being made of glass and having difficulty running in June is not a positive sign for the future

    -How many footballs is Gronk going to break this year?....11.....Combo of Lloyd and a greater emphasis on the running game will limit production of the entire group....but Brady will have his best career completion %

    -Will Hernandez top the 1000 yard receiving mark?....No....see Gronk answer

    -Does Solder make the seamless transition to fulltime LT and keep Brady clean?......Solder will dominate

    -Why is the Marcus Cannon only practicing at tackle when he was clearly marked as a guard practice coming out of school, and our interior has so many Q's?....I thought Cannon lacked footwork and quickness last, so this T positioning is puzzling....makes me worry more about SeaBass

    -Does the transition back to a 3-4 (don't forget that's the direction they went in the playoffs) helpe Jermaine Cunningham improve upon a decent rookie season, or did he show his true colors last year?.......He may not survive final cuts


    -Does Vereen or Ridley win the "primary" ball carrier role?.....Ridley will be the guy. As long as Woodhead is on the roster, Vareen will be limited


    -Does Sterling Moore cement himself as a true playmaker in the secondary?....not seeing it


    -How long will it take Chandler Jones, Hightower, and Bequette to make an impact on the field?.........Hightower will be a play making stud by game 5....book it

    -Will Alfonzo Dennard make his presence felt in the secondary at all? He seems to be around the ball all the time.....they will go to him early when McCourty flops and Dowling shatters
  26. BlueThunder

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    #87 Jersey

    Kind of a glass half empty evaluation IMHO.....why so glum? :eek:
  27. Joey007

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    Simple. He doesn't want to get his hopes up on Patriots defensive backs. Which is understandable, because it seems like ever since Samuel left, we can't seem to get it right in the secondary. I mean, we've seen Terrance Wheatley, and Darius Butler both high picks completely fizzle. You just gotta worry about McCourty becoming Butler and Dowling becoming Wheatley. It's not that I think that will happen, it does though just seem like no matter what we do to our secondary, somehow everything goes wrong.
  28. Palm Beach Pats Fan

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    If we get big contributions from Ras-I and any contributions at all from Jermaine Cunningham,

    it will seem like I found twenty dollar bills in my old coat pocket.

    Wonderful, unexpected, magical developments.
  29. VJCPatriot

    VJCPatriot Rookie

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    Hightower is a VIOLENT and sudden player. Just watch the clips. This kid will make an impact on the defense, whether we play him on the inside or outside, and yes, he can rush the passer!
    Clip: Ultimate Dont'a Hightower Highlights (2012 Draft 25th Pick - New England Patriots) - YouTube

    Chandler Jones has freakish athleticism and length. BB will assign him a role and tell him to just destroy the QB. He will make some impact plays for us on 3rd down. If the OL doesn't account for him properly, watch out!
    Clip: Ultimate Chandler Jones Highlights (2012 Draft 21st Pick - New England Patriots) - YouTube

    That's not even getting into the additions of Trevor Scott, Fanene, and Beckett. Ninkovich also is playing with his hand more in the dirt according to OTA reports. I am smelling the makings of a more aggressive qb-attacking defense in 2012!

    I am excited about this defense! Yes there are some uncertainties here, but a lot of potential for the kids to step up. Gregory might be just what we needed to bandage the secondary, remember that BB hit big time on Harrison. This could be a similar scenario. And Tavon Wilson is also waiting in the wings, if he's a Eugene Wilson clone, that more than justifies a 2nd round pick as long as he is effective short term. And Dennard is making plays in OTAs so far. Let's see if that carries over to minicamp and then official training camp.

    Offensive line - TALL and TALENTED. Solder is huge and athletic, what he might lack in experience he'll make up for in physicality. Could turn out to be a way better overall tackle than Light who was a technician but had his limitations.
    Clip:Universaldraft.com Presents - Nate Solder - OT - Colorado - YouTube

    Gallery, Cannon, McDonald are all competing for starting roles, giving us additional depth on the OL. Let the best man-beasts win! The skill players could take this offense to the next level as well. Scored 511 points in 2011, I can easily see that total surpassed as Gronk and Hernadez get even more entrenched and comfortable in this offense and the receivers group adding LLoyd, Gaffney, and Stallworth. Stretch the field, we shall!
  30. BlueThunder

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    #87 Jersey

    VJC- Thats more like it ! :rocker:
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