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Ron Paul Wins CPAC Straw Poll.

Discussion in 'Political Discussion' started by IcyPatriot, Feb 12, 2011.

  1. IcyPatriot

    IcyPatriot ------------- PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    If we all had to choose a democrat and a republican candidate ...

    Would you choose Ron Paul?


    Is there anything you like about Ron Paul regardless of your political affiliation?

    CPAC Straw Poll Results - HUMAN EVENTS
    I think Obama wins regardless of who runs for the GOP.
    That being said I think Ron Paul would make the election interesting and he would force a more domestic fiscal policy debate. I think it will be that way anyways - but Paul would help make it more so IMO.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2011
  2. chicowalker

    chicowalker Pro Bowl Player

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    Re: Ron Paul Wins CPAC Straw Poll?

    I'd consider him, though he goes further toward libertarianism (is that a word?) than I prefer.

    I do like that he at least brings ideas and a way of thinking to the debate that most other pols -- from either major party -- haven't in the recent past.
     
  3. shirtsleeve

    shirtsleeve In the Starting Line-Up

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    There is everything I like about Ron Paul except his personality (flat, uninspiring) and his speaking style (wet noodle). People will vote image and projected assertiveness and confidence. Not issues or substance.
     
  4. Harry Boy

    Harry Boy Look Up, It's Amazing PatsFans.com Supporter

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    The only way Obama could loose the election is if the Republicans can find a Right Wing Common Sense Patriotic Muslim (america is hung up on this type of sh!t) now is the time for somebody "different" to run, they will win, legs will tingle all across the land.
     
  5. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    I kind of like Ron Paul, but I think his age will hurt him, aside from the fact that his libertarian sensibilities would offend the partisans and their corporate sponsors. His selection for the Vice President would be analyzed to death.

    However, I do agree that his politics, when brought onto the national stage, would probably open the debate floor in a way we haven't seen since Perot. That could only be good for this country.
     
  6. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    No surprise he won. I think it's the racist newsletter that had his Christmas greetings, his name, and was written by his aide -- you know the newsletter: the one Paul absurdly denies any knowledge of -- is probably what gave him the edge. Now, if they can only get his son Rand, who wants to be bring back legalized discrimination, on the ticket, the racists will have a dream team.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2011
  7. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    One day, people will wonder what happened to American politics, and somehow this post will survive to be an example of what was wrong about American political discourse.
     
  8. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    So why do you think that 90%+ of blacks and 70%+ of most other minorities vote flor the Democrats? Clearly, if you're a bigot, you're more likely to vote for the Republicans, and Ron Paul is a bigot. If he did not have that newsletter the bigots would have probably divided themselves among other Republicans. If I was a racist, I'd absolutely support Libertarian views. After all, Rand Paul believes that instead of the Civil War, the Unon should have purchased freedom for the slaves from their owners.
     
  9. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    Don't you see that you just reduced an entire platform to a racist agenda? I understand that you are a partisan Democrat, but I think this country needs exposure to thinking outside of the agenda set by the Democrats and Republicans. Ron Paul, whatever his views on race (I think you're oversimplifying things, but I don't care enough to debate it), brings something different to the table. I know that Libertarian views scare the bejeezus out of the mainstream parties, because libertarianism is about shifting power away from the government. I'm not 100% Libertarian, because I do have some significant difference of opinion on some matters, but I think Washington could do with some libertarianism in the mix.

    As for why the Democrats get the black and minority vote, I think the issues are far more complicated and nuanced than "REPUBLICANS AND LIBERTARIANS ARE SCREAMING RACISTS!!!"

    From what I see of you, I think you're too intelligent to really be buying into some of the things you're posting here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
  10. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Libertarian views provide de facto support to the dominant culture. If we were a truly colorblind and otherwise tolerant society, they would make more sense, but we are not that kind of society. Libertarianism appeals to racists, but not all Libertarians are racist. Indeed, many Libertarians have a sort naive view that the pure simplicity of Libertarianism is somehow more important than the reality that those views have historically resulted in the oppression of minorities, women, workers, children, and others. On paper, the case for Libertarianism is stronger than in reality, IMO.
     
  11. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #75 Jersey

    Right, so the way to reform the human condition to be free of any prejudice is to have state-mandated discrimination in an effort to solve the problem of personal discrimination.

    Or are you saying that only people in the majority group have prejudices?
     
  12. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    It's the federal government that defeated the states to end slavery, impose the woman's vote, provide some measure of equality for gays, end segregation, block discrimination based on race and gender, and so on. The state, through its laws and educational system, shapes our mores, and as time passes bigotry has become less socially acceptable. In case you haven't realized, our American values were handed down by the state through it's legal system and educational system, which of course are ultimately influenced by an older set of western values.

    I'm not sure what kind of state-mandated discrimination you're referring to. Can you clarify that?

    As far as minorities having prejudices, the fact is that system protects both minorities and majorities. In fact, there's ample evidence that white straight male Christians have done well under our system, so overall our system does a good job protecting them.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
  13. The Brandon Five

    The Brandon Five Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #75 Jersey

    You do realize that the abolitonist and suffrage movements came out of American churches? That Lincoln was a Republican? The man being portrayed by Ioan Gruffudd in my avatar is William Wilberforce. He, along with a group of people known as the Claphamites, drove the state to abolish the slave trade and eventually slavery in the British Empire. The state has no mind or soul in and of itself. Laws are made by men (and women).

    My values do not come from the state. The values of a country come from its people, in my opinion. Those values made all of the things you cite possible.

    My point was that bigotry is a failing, but it is part of the human condition. When bigotry is armed with power (i.e. the bigot is in the majority group) you get discrimination. If the remedy for this is to mandate discrimination against members of the majority group, it will not feel less unfair to the victim of that discrimination (particularly if that vicitim is not a bigot).

    My other point was that all of us have prejudices.

    For example: some people dislike Republicans and Libertarians.
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011
  14. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Obviously there's a synergistic relationship between individuals and their government in a democracy, but in the case of civil rights it has taken the federal government to overcome resistance at the state level. That does not mean that some states are ahead of the feds. You do realize that at Lincoln's time the Republican Party was a liberal party with it's base in the Northeast and that Lincoln had to deal with a left wing (the Radical Republicans), not a right wing in his party?

    So are you saying if you were born in rural China, you would have the values you currently have? I think there's a synergistic relationship between the state and its people in a democracy. A good example would be the treatment of women. 50 years ago, it was okay to sexually harass women and discriminate against women. Now, as a result of the woman's movement, which led to legal and educational changes, that's no longer acceptable.

    What examples mandated discrimination against the majority are you referring to? Sure, there were a handful of cases when Affirmative Action was around, but that's no longer the case. Affirmative action succeeded in opening up whites-only fire, police, and construction trades to minorities, among others, and thus support for it waned.

    Of course, we all have prejudices, but usually when talking about discrimination we're talking about things that people can't easily change and not respecting the views and values of others. I disagree with Republican and Libertarians, but I certainly don't dislike them. I don't think I have any prejudices. For instance, I don't think the wealthy should pay more in tax because I'm against wealth, I think they should pay more tax because we have too much debt and need to do more to help poor people. If there was a way to avoid taxes and help the needy, I'd be all for it.
     
  15. Nikolai

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    #54 Jersey

    The women's movement, which was borne out of the masses, pushed the government to do it's job and protect them as equal citizens. It was not borne out of the government, though our form of government allowed this to happen. However, I'm not so sure that such popular movements (if they can still be conducted) can be successful in today's political environment.
     
  16. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    That's an interesting statement, Nikolai, and one I agree with, but I wonder if our reasons are the same or even similar. Can you elaborate on why?
     
  17. Harry Boy

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    The womens movement gave us Sarah............



    :bricks:
     
  18. Mrs.PatsFanInVa

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    #24 Jersey

    Nobody said it was perfect.
     
  19. Patters

    Patters Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Absolutely, grassroots movements come first (thank God). But, those movements do not rise with equal power everywhere. They are able to affect the national consensus and have more immediate results on the federal government than the individual state governments. State governments are vastly more insulated from public pressure (and are vastly more corrupt) than the federal government. The gay rights movement is an example of a movement that has been effective in today's political environment. Hate crimes legislation and the end to don't ask/don't tell are two recent examples.
     
  20. Nikolai

    Nikolai Football Atheist PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #54 Jersey

    There are myriad reasons for it. I'll have to give the "half-assed" version because I have to run. The first is that it is difficult to get Americans together to do anything outside of watching the Super Bowl or eating food. Political participation is decreasing as more and more Americans believe that their voice doesn't matter in the government. I believe that is partly a result of the partisan nature of politics, in which the political discourse has become about the parties, rather than the issues. Most people feel disconnected from the political discourse when it becomes about the parties and not the people. I also believe that the concentration of power in the government has insulated it from public pressure, which is difficult to mount anyway, as I noted above.

    Some state governments are more corrupt than the federal government. Like you, I live in southern New England, so it's easy to believe that state governments, as a rule, are more corrupt than the federal government (Connecticut certainly is). However, there are state governments out there that are run with more efficiency and less corruption than you'll find in Washington. They tend to be the states that are not dominated by one party or another; i.e. they have the kind of accountability that stems from the threat of being voted out.

    Gay rights movements have been effective, but I would contend that the bulk of their success came in the the years before this millennium started. The ball got rolling on that and other hate crimes years before this toxic political and social environment came about in America. A better example of something to watch in coming years is the struggle to decrease corporate influence on elections; I'm fairly certain most Americans want this to happen. We'll see...

    EDIT - I noticed you and I both used the phrase "insulated from public pressure". Hmmm...
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2011

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