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Ron Borges: Patriots face identity crisis - Reminiscent of ‘soft’ Colts teams

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by pats_premi, Nov 30, 2009.

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  1. pats_premi

    pats_premi Rookie

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    I understand Ron Borges has strong biased against the Patriots, but he brings up an interesting point in regard to how the Colts are winning like the Patriots from the super bowl years. He also questions if the Patriots have become what the Colts were (i.e soft team)

    Patriots face identity crisis - BostonHerald.com

    Your thoughts ?
  2. ctpatsfan77

    ctpatsfan77 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wrong Borges is an idiot?
  3. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Borges is crap, pure and simple...makes a living off of being a contrarian..
  4. mcgraw_wv

    mcgraw_wv Rookie

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    I agree...Since 07, we're a finesse team...

    Even in 07, our defense was not tough, and we couldn't run the ball with any power.
  5. MrTibbs

    MrTibbs Rookie

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    I just read that article in today's Herald and I tell you what.............


    Man he is DEAD ON. Say what you want but if they lose tonight there is no doubt about what he wrote.

    Gone are the big plays, the tough physical defense and run game. They simply try and outscore you and HOPE the opposing teams mess up along the way which doesn't seem to happen as much as we all hope for.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2009
  6. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    Ok so if they lose tonight and win the rest of their games ripping teams up but close the deal is he, and you both wrong? One game does not justify this position.

    The defense has lost talent and playmakers. Thats the difference.

    Fact is that if they win in 07, we aren't even having this discussion.

    This is dumb.
  7. sbpatfan

    sbpatfan Banned

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    I like how the Patriots are "soft" because they lost to the Colts by one point in the regular season. Isn't the Colts rushing offense #30 - #32 or something? If we are soft, they are softer. The Colts are walking on a thin line. In all honesty, their defense is about one injury away from crashing. Freeny is already banged up.
  8. PATSYLICIOUS

    PATSYLICIOUS Rookie

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    #12 Jersey

    This team certainly has issues (ones that I firmly believe will be ironed out soon enough) but the last thing I would call this team is soft. Has he watched any of our games?
  9. WelshPat

    WelshPat Rookie

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    If running the ball and great defense makes you tough, then neither the Colts or the Pats are tough, neither can run and against a good offense both defenses get exposed.

    But then again, if that's what makes you a tough team then i guess there are only like 2/3 tough teams in the league. The Vikings would be the only ones that stand out.
  10. brady et al fan

    brady et al fan Rookie

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    I didn't read the entire article but this is not exactly breaking news. Its about personnel and more specifically our defensive personnel. Those gritty championship teams had 3 things going for them

    1) Bill Belicheck
    2) Tom Brady
    3) intense, play-making defense

    We still have 1 and 2 but we are still developing #3. I like what I am starting to see with our DBs but I think we're still an LB or 2 away from a championship defense and until then, yes, we have to rely on our offense putting up big numbers.

    I generally avoid Borges articles as he is one of the annoying anti-Belicheck, agenda-driven mediots in the area. He lost credibility a long time ago for me.
  11. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I didn't read the article, but I've heard that argument before - possibly from Borges himself - that the Pats have gone soft, turning into the old Colts, etc.

    While I agree that the current Pats team does not seem to have as good a running game since Corey Dillon was here, or is not as good on defense as they were in '03 and '04, I don't think the '09 Pats are as bad in these areas as some portray them to be either.

    One other thing to keep in mind is with the changes in the ways refs are instructed to officiate a game, shifting towards more of a 'finesse' team may not be all that bad of a strategy. The teams known for having those tough, physical defenses - the Steelers, Ravens and Giants - are all 6-5 and on the outside looking in right now in terms of making the playoffs. Teams with a strong passing game - the Colts, Saints, Vikings, Chargers and Patriots - are all leading their divisions and appear to be in good shape for the playoffs.
  12. patsfaninpittsburgh

    patsfaninpittsburgh Banned

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    So how exactly do you explain being top two in turn over differential?

    Or that this defense is the second scoring defense in the league?

    Why do you believe in a history that doesn't exist?

    Never under estimate the stupidity of certain segments of the population.
  13. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I agree with part of what you say.

    First, for Borges, this is a reasonably fair article. He doesn't seem to be grinding an ax against the Pats.

    Second, he's absolutely right about the Colts. They have been pure clutch, just like the 2003-2004 Pats teams. We moan about all their close calls, but they keep pulling out games in the clutch and finding ways to win, no matter what the situation. We exulted in the Pats' ability to do just that during the SB years.

    As far as his 2nd point, that the Pats have become a "finesse" team, I'm not so sure. I worried about this a lot during the preseason, and wanted to see us get more physical and aggressive on both sides of the ball. It seems to me that we've done just that, though we have lapsed back into being a finesse team at times, with disasterous results. But Maroney is running aggressively and with a nasty edge; Vollmer and Mankins are a physical, mean set of OLs unlike anything the Colts have had; and our defense is far from a finesse group, with hard hitting plays coming from the DL, LBs and secondary alike.

    The Pats' D is 2nd in the NFL in fewest points allowed. It's possible that they will keep the Saints' juggernaut under 20 points, but even if the game turns into a shootout I don't think it's a referendum on our defense being "soft". We're 3rd in the NFL in turnovers and 2nd in turnover differential. I'm not sure you can fairly say that "Gone are the big plays, the tough physical defense and run game. They simply try and outscore you and HOPE the opposing teams mess up along the way which doesn't seem to happen as much as we all hope for."

    I agree about 75% with Borges, and I don't think he's being unfair. The Colts have become the 2003-2004 Pats (except that they haven't been able to win in the postseason yet, which is a huge difference; until they prove that, they don't deserve comparisons with the 2003-2004 Pats). The Pats haven't yet learned that winning edge which they've had in the past, and have had trouble putting opponents away. And at times the Pats DO become a finesse team, which I think is a big mistake. But when this team plays with aggression and physicality on both sides of the ball, it's not at all a finesse team.
  14. Leave No Doubt

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    I remember reading something along these lines not too long ago but I forget if it was an article or someone's post:confused: I'm not sure about the Pats going soft part but the comparison itself rings a bell. Tedy's interview maybe?

    Anyway I think the Colts/Manning have matured a lot over the years and in no small way it's thanks to the Pats. Back in the day we, and really only we, made fools of them. If not for us they likely would've been sporting another ring besides the one they FINALLY got ;)

    The Pats haven't gone "soft", sweetjeeezuz they've been making NFL history on more than one occasion, they pulled out an 11-5 record last year with Matty Man at the helm; most years that record takes us into January. We had a perfect season in 07 and it wasn't the Colts who beat us it was the Giants. Typical Borges. I may agree about the Colts but I disagree that the Pats have "gone soft". The only thing that's gone soft is Borges' brain:rolleyes:
  15. TennesseePatriot

    TennesseePatriot Rookie

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    Difference is DB's were allowed to touch our Wide Receivers.
  16. Patstopia

    Patstopia Rookie

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    Twist it, shape it, anyway you like it. Just as long as it's a jab at the Pats it's all good. I couldn't even finish the 'article'. Pure unadulterated Bull S###. Just knowing he still works in this market makes me sick.
  17. Tunescribe

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    #61 Jersey

    Thanks for asking my thoughts. They are:

    1). Borges is a jerk and usually wrong; hence, the name wRONg Borg-ass.

    2). Borges is a moron.

    3). Borges needs to get religion and become a missionary in the Congo.

    4). Anyone who reads Borges regularly is putting their mental health at severe risk.

    5). Other than Borges' obituary, I would be pleased never to see him mentioned in this forum, ever again.
  18. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    I wrote the exact same thing a month ago here in a thread, that the Pats and Colts have flipped styles.

    Did Borges just steal again...


    jk. Kind of.
  19. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    If Borges agrees with you, then that's a sign...
  20. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    If the Patriots lose tonight I will have absolutely no confidence that they can get into the playoffs and beat the better teams...this team has beaten creampuffs all year (yes,Baltimore and Atlanta are far from Elite) so they need to not only win, but win convinsingly and it could go a long way to success when the playoffs start and the better teams are all that is left,this game is a must to win,not for the playoffs but for confidence.
  21. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

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    You read it HERE several weeks back, on this forum:
    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...les-2001-2009-a.html?highlight=Colts Patriots


    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...2003-2004-colts.html?highlight=Colts Patriots


    Wouldn't be surprised if Borges is just trolling various forums these days for more material to lift.
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2009
  22. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah, I knew there had been a discussion on that topic here recently. I figured I'd give Borges the benefit of the doubt and suggest he was recycling his own material - but your theory of him using messageboards for columns wouldn't surprise me in the least.
  23. PATSYLICIOUS

    PATSYLICIOUS Rookie

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    Let me know who the '07 Giants and '05 Steelers beat in the regular season that made them world beaters going into the playoffs
  24. ausbacker

    ausbacker Brady > Manning. PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #51 Jersey

    I agree somewhat with the crux of your points maverick, but not the philosophy behind your arguments. When the Colts have sustained play-off success, then the role reversals will be more easily argued.
  25. Peachhead

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    I don't disagree with him. Although I wouldn't dare compare the Colts with the old Pats. I hate the spread offense. No matter how many flashy points we score. Even if we don't have the personnel for a stifling defense. There's more than one way to keep the other guys from scoring. Give me a dink and dunk, power running, ball control offense with the threat of a Randy Moss fly pattern if the defense creeps up.

    The "greatest show on turf" wasn't as dominant as it's cracked up to be.
  26. tombonneau

    tombonneau Rookie

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    Haven't read the article yet, but it already has 208 comments.

    I'd say he's doing his job very well.
  27. chrisfx811

    chrisfx811 Rookie

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    2006: If the refs don't get their grimy fingerprints all over that game, the Pats win 4 out of 6. Or even if they just call the game the same on both sides of the ball, the Pats win.

    2007: If Asante Samuel holds on to a gimme INT, the Pats go down as the GOAT! If Asante doesn't abandon Tyree, same result. If TfB & the coaches manage the final possession better, they at least get to OT.

    2008: 11-5 with a backup QB... enough said.

    2009: 7-3 with a QB coming off major surgery and a D that ranks as highly as it does with a host of new faces? WTF is he talking about. Take away the bogus PI, the bad 4th down spot, or have TfB pass to Welker and the Pats are the class of the AFC.

    I don't care what anyone says, the rules benefit the passing teams these days, and for some reason, they REALLY benefit a Peyton Manning passing team.

    The Pats have 3 losses by a combined 11 points, but their ceiling is higher.
    Compare that with the Colts. Can they keep getting away with late game heroics? Can they keep getting ALL the calls? (Maybe) Can they keep hoping RBs fumble on the goal line?

    The Pats can look forward to:
    Possibly having a healthy o-line.
    Possibly having their 3 headed rushing attack back for the stretch run.
    Possibly having the d-line rotation back at full strength.
    Possibly having more game reps for their budding WRs like Stanbeck, Edelman, etc.
  28. farn

    farn Rookie

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    I agree with the main premise. They are all offense and a tad soft. Last year's 3rd down vs Favre, their inability in years to get off the field when needed...

    They are a very good team with a shot. They are not the 03-04 Pats... unless they show me something soon. I am still hopeful things can/will turn around, but they are like the early decade Colts in quite a few ways.
  29. Leave No Doubt

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  30. SidelineSid

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    I'm sorry, but this has gotta be said. We can't dance around this anymore. The Colts fans used to make excuses when we beat them. Now we're the ones making the excuses. This isn't us. This isn't what we are used to and I can tell you why. It is because we've lost the physicality and aggressiveness that we used to have. I know we still make interceptions and forced fumbles, but when was the last time that you saw a play from the defense that really made opposing teams fear us?

    Who is afraid to go across the middle against us? Who is afraid of taking a hard shot from our players? When was the last time that you saw a guy get hit and he looked like he really didn't want anymore? Now when you take all of that, and really think about it, you have to ask: Did we do all of these things when it counted? Did we make the big plays against the best teams in critical situations? I know that I'm asking a lot of questions, but that's what we've have a lot of for the past five years. We've had a bunch of question marks on the team because not enough players had answers. And you don't win championships if you can't answer other teams.

    We aren't built to go blow for blow with other teams anymore. Football is a 60 minute fight and we keep getting knocked out at the 50. We have to finish games. We have to find balance. Yes, it's fine to be cautious on defense at times, but all the damn time is ridiculous. We've lost a lot of the aggressive energy on defense. We can't rush the passer in a critical situation to save our lives. If something should happen to Banta-Cain we are done. Dead in the water. But what about the offense.

    Yes, we have a great passing game. Yes we have done a bunch of great things through the air. But this is the NFL. It's not always about what you've done. It's about what you are going to do. And bet on this! On 4th and 2, the Colts knew exactly what we were going to do. They knew that we were going to pass because that's what we are: A passing team. We are not an offensive team: that implies balance. We've lost a great deal of that. If you disagree, then ask yourself why a poor Jets team was able to climb back into a football game that it had no business being in. Why were they able to stop us on offense and push us around on defense. IT'S BECAUSE WE DON'T FIGHT BACK. We've lost how. We haven't fought back from a bad deficit since week 1. I don't even think the level of competition needs to be discussed (that team doesn't even have a winning record).

    We can't just run the ball more, we have to run the ball more effectively. We have to stop defenders from hitting our running backs before the line of scrimmage. We have to stop being predictable. We have to get our tight ends more involved in a passing game that is lacking a true third receiver. Most importantly, we can't keep living in the shot gun. It lets other teams take too many shots at us. Our offensive linemen can't wear anyone down because the play is usually over before they can really do some damage.

    We can't keep making excuses about other teams because we've become the "other team." We're not champions. We're chasers. That's all we are going to be until we get physical, aggressive, and find some balance.
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