Rivals and Contenders

[efin98]

And now you're looping your argument. Marty does not have a job because he and the GM didn't get along. Norv has a job because he hasn't been fired yet. If his team goes 8-8 again, I expect that he'll be done as a head coach, even if they win a playoff game.

Being friends with the GM has played a role in saving Turner's job as well...and could cost both of them their jobs if he can't bring himself to fire him after another disaster and controversy.

 

[TriplecHamp]

And now you're looping your argument. Marty does not have a job because he and the GM didn't get along. Norv has a job because he hasn't been fired yet. If his team goes 8-8 again, I expect that he'll be done as a head coach, even if they win a playoff game.

What do you mean I'm looping my argument? I'm saying that Marty doesn't have a job because he doesn't win in the playoffs, No other team has hired him. If he goes 8-8 and loses in the AFC championship game I can guarantee he wont lose his job, I can guarantee he doesn't lose his job if he loses in the divisional round. Go ask any chargers fan (we had won here) which was the better season 11-5 or 14-2 and one and done. You are basing a coaches talent on his regular season record and I'm basing it on what you do in the postseason. Like Ive said many of times how can you say that 14-2 with no playoff victories is better than 11-5 and winning games in the playoffs? Like the other guy said we went 16-0 to 11-5 dose that mean BB is running the team into the ground? No we had injuries and different circumstances than the previous year. The same can be applied for Norv Turner but Turner was in the playoffs and defeated the Colts and wound up losing to the eventual Superbowl champions.

 

[Deus Irae]

What do you mean I'm looping my argument? I'm saying that Marty doesn't have a job because he doesn't win in the playoffs, No other team has hired him. If he goes 8-8 and loses in the AFC championship game I can guarantee he wont lose his job, I can guarantee he doesn't lose his job if he loses in the divisional round. Go ask any chargers fan (we had won here) which was the better season 11-5 or 14-2 and one and done. You are basing a coaches talent on his regular season record and I'm basing it on what you do in the postseason. Like Ive said many of times how can you say that 14-2 with no playoff victories is better than 11-5 and winning games in the playoffs? Like the other guy said we went 16-0 to 11-5 dose that mean BB is running the team into the ground? No we had injuries and different circumstances than the previous year. The same can be applied for Norv Turner but Turner was in the playoffs and defeated the Colts and wound up losing to the eventual Superbowl champions.

And, AGAIN, he didn't lose his job because he lost in the playoffs. He lost his job because he and the GM didn't get along. You're just looping your argument and your argument sucks. For crying out loud, how ridiculous do you plan to get with this nonsense? Turner's gotten his ass canned on multiple occasions, just as Marty has. He didn't get it done in Washington. He didn't get it done in Oakland. Now he's struggling in San Diego.

As for the 16-0 to 11-5 nonsense, a one year slide from greatness due to the loss of the G.O.A.T. is not running a team into the ground. How can you even pretend that argument has any rational basis to it? Sometimes using absurdity to highlight a point is a valuable tool. At other times, such as this instance, it's just absurd.

 

[efin98]

And, AGAIN, he didn't lose his job because he lost in the playoffs. He lost his job because he and the GM didn't get along. You're just looping your argument and your argument sucks. For crying out loud, how ridiculous do you plan to get with this nonsense? Turner's gotten his ass canned on multiple occasions, just as Marty has. He didn't get it done in Washington. He didn't get it done in Oakland. Now he's struggling in San Diego.

You are right.

Marty Schottenheimer fired by Chargers

The freaking OWNER said it was due to the deterioration of their relationship...after the OWNER had given his support behind Schottenheimer.

 

[TriplecHamp]

And, AGAIN, he didn't lose his job because he lost in the playoffs. He lost his job because he and the GM didn't get along. You're just looping your argument and your argument sucks. For crying out loud, how ridiculous do you plan to get with this nonsense? Turner's gotten his ass canned on multiple occasions, just as Marty has. He didn't get it done in Washington. He didn't get it done in Oakland. Now he's struggling in San Diego.

As for the 16-0 to 11-5 nonsense, a one year slide from greatness due to the loss of the G.O.A.T. is not running a team into the ground. How can you even pretend that argument has any rational basis to it? Sometimes using absurdity to highlight a point is a valuable tool. At other times, such as this instance, it's just absurd.

You telling me if Marty wins the SB like a number one seed is expected to do he gets fired? F**K NO he doesn't, Your argument is based on the fact that Marty won 14 games in his best year and Norv Turner won 8 this year. Do you know what marty's record was in his first year with San D? 4-12...That is a sh!tty Year ok, 4-12! How can you say the Pats had a one year slide but the Chargers "oh well Norv Turner is running the team into the ground" That's BS, its was his second year with the team after going to the AFC championship in his first with out one of the G.O.A.T that is LT injured. How can you say he is ruining the Chargers when the Chargers have been in the Playoffs and won in the Playoffs in both of the years hes been there but Mary never won Sh!t in the Playoffs? That's right "Oh he went 14-2, and he had problems with the F.O." but if he got it done in the playoffs and maybe won a SB or even gotten to the AFC championship game he would still be in San Diego. Your argument is stupid because it sounds like you have your head so far up Marty's you know what that you taking the you know what right out of it and using it as your argument and guess what its Sh!t.

 

[Deus Irae]

You telling me if Marty wins the SB like a number one seed is expected to do he gets fired? F**K NO he doesn't, Your argument is based on the fact that Marty won 14 games in his best year and Norv Turner won 8 this year. Do you know what marty's record was in his first year with San D? 4-12...That is a sh!tty Year ok, 4-12! How can you say the Pats had a one year slide but the Chargers "oh well Norv Turner is running the team into the ground" That's BS, its was his second year with the team after going to the AFC championship in his first with out one of the G.O.A.T that is LT injured. How can you say he is ruining the Chargers when the Chargers have been in the Playoffs and won in the Playoffs in both of the years hes been there but Mary never won Sh!t in the Playoffs? That's right "Oh he went 14-2, and he had problems with the F.O." but if he got it done in the playoffs and maybe won a SB or even gotten to the AFC championship game he would still be in San Diego. Your argument is stupid because it sounds like you have your head so far up Marty's you know what that you taking the you know what right out of it and using it as your argument and guess what its Sh!t.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/239150-rivals-contenders-page2.html#post1384915

Take it up with Spanos. I'm sure you know more about why he got rid of Marty than he does, so maybe you could explain it to him.

 

[TriplecHamp]

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/239150-rivals-contenders-page2.html#post1384915

Take it up with Spanos. I'm sure you know more about why he got rid of Marty than he does, so maybe you could explain it to him.

Chargers head coach Schottenheimer fired - NFL - ESPN

This decision was so hard because Marty has been both a friend and valued coach of our team," Spanos said in a statement. "But my first obligation is always to do what is in the best interest of our fans and the entire Charger organization. I must take whatever steps are necessary to deliver a Super Bowl trophy to San Diego. Events of the last month have now convinced me that it is not possible for our organization to function at a championship level under the current structure. On the contrary, and in the plainest possible language, we have a dysfunctional situation here. Today I am resolving that situation once and for all."

Yes he did have issues with the F.O. but it was because of the loss of his Coordinators and his inability to bring a Super Bowl trophy to San Diego. Do you know how you win a Super Bowl trophy, You win in the playoffs. Marty never won in the Playoffs. If he had, he would still be the coach.

 

[Deus Irae]

Chargers head coach Schottenheimer fired - NFL - ESPN

This decision was so hard because Marty has been both a friend and valued coach of our team," Spanos said in a statement. "But my first obligation is always to do what is in the best interest of our fans and the entire Charger organization. I must take whatever steps are necessary to deliver a Super Bowl trophy to San Diego. Events of the last month have now convinced me that it is not possible for our organization to function at a championship level under the current structure. On the contrary, and in the plainest possible language, we have a dysfunctional situation here. Today I am resolving that situation once and for all."

Yes he did have issues with the F.O. but it was because of the loss of his Coordinators and his inability to bring a Super Bowl trophy to San Diego. Do you know how you win a Super Bowl trophy, You win in the playoffs. Marty never won in the Playoffs. If he had, he would still be the coach.

You do like to twist the quotes, I'll give you that. On the other hand, I despise people who can't admit they were wrong when a proof so obvious is put in front of them. Spanos spells it out for you right there and you still try to blow smoke up everyone's backsides. Events of the past month.... and you try warping that? Therefore, I'm done with you. You can keep making up the "facts" for other people.

 

[Deus Irae]

Just a wrap up regarding the firing, so that the twisting doesn't somehow become accepted as fact:

San Diego Chargers head coach Marty Schottenheimer was axed Monday night, less than a month after he agreed to stay.

Agreed to stay? Why would he have to agree? Oh, wait...

Schottenheimer's dismissal comes in the wake of his decision not to accept a one-year, $4.5-million US contract extension for 2008, a rejection that reportedly irked Spanos and Smith.

Marty Schottenheimer fired by Chargers

So he was offered an extension because he couldn't win playoff games..... BRILLIANT!

"My approach might have been a little different than his," Smith conceded. "It is more the actual working relationship that's been difficult."

Hmmm... not the win/loss record being mentioned here, or playoff problems.

And more from Spanos:

"When I decided to move ahead with Marty Schottenheimer in mid-January, I did so with the expectation that the core of his fine coaching staff would remain intact," Chargers President Dean Spanos said..

"Unfortunately, that did not prove to be the case, and the process of dealing with these coaching changes convinced me that we simply could not move forward with such dysfunction between our head coach and general manager," Spanos continued.

What? Nothing about Norv winning playoff games but not Marty? Why, one would think Spanos had offered an extension, had the coach turn him down, decided to keep the coach around and then changed his mind because they coach and GM couldn't play nice together about how to replace the coaches who moved on.

My translator must be broken..... I could have sworn that Spanos mentioned he had originally decided to keep Marty, and that the decision came about after the loss to the Patriots. Let's hearken back:

“I have decided that Marty Schottenheimer is the best person to lead the Chargers in the 2007 season. General Manager A.J. Smith and I agree on this fundamental point. That is why we are pleased to welcome Marty and his coaching staff back for Marty’s sixth season as head coach of the San Diego Chargers.

“We are all bitterly disappointed how this season ended, but we can’t allow our disappointment to cloud the achievements of our franchise over the past few years. Only two teams have won more regular season games over the past three years than the Chargers. We have 24 key players under long-term contracts through at least 2009. This is a fine young team, with great chemistry, and right now stability is important for this team. I’m already looking forward to next season.

“That is why we are also offering one-year contract extensions for Coach Schottenheimer’s staff, through 2008. We also offered a one-year $4.5 million contract extension to Marty, with a team option buy-out of $1 million for the 2008 season. He decided not to accept this extension, and I respect his decision.

http://cfx.signonsandiego.com/sports/chargers/cfx/2007/01/breaking_news_marty_schottenhe_1.html

 

[TriplecHamp]

Like I said I admit that Marty had issues with the front office but he also never went anywhere in the post season. I ask you this question, If Marty wins a Superbowl is he fired? NO, end of discussion. I honesty don't give two Flying F**** why he was fired and at all, I'm not a Chargers fan. I do know that Marty never won a playoff game in San Diego and Norv Turner has in his first two years, Norv Turner is not running the Chargers into the ground. End of Story!

 

[Patjew]

We should get a poll going on this. I for one think that Norv Turner has brought that team down. And I thank him for it.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

I do know that Marty never won a playoff game in San Diego and Norv Turner has in his first two years, Norv Turner is not running the Chargers into the ground. End of Story!

So, because Norv won a playoff game, he's a better coach than Marty?

Im just wonderin, because alot of people used to make fun of Manning saying he couldnt win the big game. Then he did. People like to rag on Marino for not winning the big game, but i don't think anyone would say he sucks. People are always saying that so in so can't win in the playoffs, but that doesnt mean they're bad at what they do. Winning in the playoffs is damn hard. Besides, Marty not getting to a superbowl, is only true now. If he was to come back to another team, and then win a SB, what will you say then? That he's better than Norv because of his playoff record?

Bottom line, no one will ever convince me that Norv is better than Marty.

btw, if we're judging by playoff wins, then Marty has the lead by 1.

 

[Sean Pa Patriot]

I think Indy will take a huge step back, Manning is good we have to admit that , but the line is aging, the defense is avg at best, with the exception of Sanders, and he usually is out 6 games a year with a inj..

Pitt, i think Miami for a short time, Kc in a few years, will be solid teams to deal with.. But we will be competive as long as Belichick is around..

 

[AzPatsFan]

So, because Norv won a playoff game, he's a better coach than Marty?

Im just wonderin, because alot of people used to make fun of Manning saying he couldnt win the big game. Then he did. People like to rag on Marino for not winning the big game, but i don't think anyone would say he sucks. People are always saying that so in so can't win in the playoffs, but that doesnt mean they're bad at what they do. Winning in the playoffs is damn hard. Besides, Marty not getting to a superbowl, is only true now. If he was to come back to another team, and then win a SB, what will you say then? That he's better than Norv because of his playoff record?

Bottom line, no one will ever convince me that Norv is better than Marty.

btw, if we're judging by playoff wins, then Marty has the lead by 1.

I will always like Marty. After all, he is one of our own. both a Patriot player, and a Patriot Coach. I recall having him stop and chat with us visiting fans, back before it was a popular thing to do, and visit Training Camp. Back when the Patriots trained out at UMASS Amherst.

His Coaching record is very good, and if he won a SB, he would likely be a HOF candidate as a Coach. I would have thought of him as another early Pats HOFer.

 

[TriplecHamp]

So, because Norv won a playoff game, he's a better coach than Marty?

Im just wonderin, because alot of people used to make fun of Manning saying he couldnt win the big game. Then he did. People like to rag on Marino for not winning the big game, but i don't think anyone would say he sucks. People are always saying that so in so can't win in the playoffs, but that doesnt mean they're bad at what they do. Winning in the playoffs is damn hard. Besides, Marty not getting to a superbowl, is only true now. If he was to come back to another team, and then win a SB, what will you say then? That he's better than Norv because of his playoff record?

Bottom line, no one will ever convince me that Norv is better than Marty.

btw, if we're judging by playoff wins, then Marty has the lead by 1.

Not one of my posts says that Norv is a better coach than Marty, I am saying the Chargers as a team are better than the Marty chargers were. As a Pats fan before Manning won the Superbowl who was the better QB, Brady or Manning? Brady, not because he put up better numbers but because he won in the playoffs. Yes winning in the Playoffs is damn hard and that's why I respect and believe that Norv turner is a good coach because he is winning in the playoffs without two of his best players healthy and his qb playing with a torn ACL. For Christs sake he won a game with Billy Volek at QB in the playoffs, thats special. If he comes back and wins a superbowl good for him but he has to find a job first, Norv Turner has one and is in better position to do so with his team than any team marty would come back on. Im not trying to convince you that Norv is better than Marty but that Norv is not running the team into the ground, No one will ever convince me of that. Are you kidding me with that last stat? Norv is 4-3 in the playoffs and Marty is 5-13. Yes that would mean that Marty also leads the loss column by 10...Kinda of like how brett favre has the TD record but also the INT record...only without the TD Record.

 

[BradyFTW!]

You telling me if Marty wins the SB like a number one seed is expected to do he gets fired? F**K NO he doesn't, Your argument is based on the fact that Marty won 14 games in his best year and Norv Turner won 8 this year. Do you know what marty's record was in his first year with San D? 4-12...That is a sh!tty Year ok, 4-12! How can you say the Pats had a one year slide but the Chargers "oh well Norv Turner is running the team into the ground" That's BS, its was his second year with the team after going to the AFC championship in his first with out one of the G.O.A.T that is LT injured. How can you say he is ruining the Chargers when the Chargers have been in the Playoffs and won in the Playoffs in both of the years hes been there but Mary never won Sh!t in the Playoffs? That's right "Oh he went 14-2, and he had problems with the F.O." but if he got it done in the playoffs and maybe won a SB or even gotten to the AFC championship game he would still be in San Diego. Your argument is stupid because it sounds like you have your head so far up Marty's you know what that you taking the you know what right out of it and using it as your argument and guess what its Sh!t.

He's basing his argument on the fact that it was outright stated by all of the parties involved that Schottenheimer was fired due to his and Smith's hostility towards each other.

Also, I'd just like to point out that you're essentially arguing that going 14-2 and losing in the playoffs is a fireable offense, but going 8-8 and losing in the playoffs isn't.

 

[alvinnf]

I think you have to be asleep at the wheel to not recognize that this franchise has put itself in a position where it will be a legitmate SB contender for as long as BB stays. Its gone on too long and through too many challenges and changes to see it as anything other than a better overall plan for a franchise than almost every other one.

With the coaching staff changes, I don't expect the Colts to ever be a contender again, at least until they rebuild after 4 or so years of mediocrity that is to come.
In our division, I see all 3 teams as non-threatening. Each seem thoroughly mediocre, equally likely to stay mediocre, improve or digress, but none seem to have reached the point where they are legitimate contenders or a challenge to our supremacy.

Who do you see as our primary SB competition over the next 4-5 years?

I think Pittsburgh will always be in the mix, but I see a downward trend for them coming.
I think they have aged and gone backward in the trenches and were able to mask it short term but over the longterm they will be a playoff team, but not SB caliber.
I think SD will have to restart with a new coach, new RB and other changes before they could contend for a SB. Norv Turner will not lead a team to a SB as HC in our lifetime, so the day he is fired is the day they start working back up the ladder that he dragged them down.
Tennesse and Jacksonville are impressive organizations to me. (like Pitt) They are consistent, and both seem like they could get on that run and contend as often as not.
Baltimore, IMO, is headed backward as the defense ages and declines.

It seems like the real competition is going to come from a rebuild effort. I kind of see that few of the teams that have been pretty good look able to elevate to the next level, and the teams that have started over have a better chance.
A lot of those rebuilds have familiar faces, Mangini, McDaniels, Pioli leading them.


If we assume that we would play in the next 5 consecutive AFCC games (not because we will but to illustrate the point) who would you expect we would face in most of them?

My guesses would be Tennessee, Jacksonville, Puittsburgh, in that order.

This and a $1.50 will get me a coffee.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Norv is 4-3 in the playoffs and Marty is 5-13. Yes that would mean that Marty also leads the loss column by 10...Kinda of like how brett favre has the TD record but also the INT record...only without the TD Record.

Do you know why Norv only has three playoff losses in his career? Because, in 11 years as a head coach, his teams have made the playoffs only 3 times. Making the playoffs in the first place is part of a coach's job, and Norv isn't very good at that.

I'm still not grasping this argument that not making the playoffs at all is better than losing in the playoffs. No matter how much you dumb down your thinking, that just doesn't compute.

 

[TriplecHamp]

He's basing his argument on the fact that it was outright stated by all of the parties involved that Schottenheimer was fired due to his and Smith's hostility towards each other.

Also, I'd just like to point out that you're essentially arguing that going 14-2 and losing in the playoffs is a fireable offense, but going 8-8 and losing in the playoffs isn't.

I never said that he wasn't fired for that reason alone, I said that if he had won a few games in the playoffs he would have not been fired no matter what the situation was. Going 14-2 and losing in the playoffs is a fireable offense if you have had problems with management, lose all of you coordinators and the organization hasn't won a playoff game in over a decade, At that point I think the Chargers were ready to move on because they felt like that they couldn't win in the playoffs with Marty at the helms. That alone is not enough but I see that as the last straw. Going 8-8 with a banged up team and still winning in the playoffs is a plus for me, it shows an ability to forget the past and move on to the task at hand. If the Chargers had been saying that they shouldn't have been in the playoffs they wouldn't have won. That comes from the coach.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Do you know why Norv only has three playoff losses in his career? Because, in 11 years as a head coach, his teams have made the playoffs only 3 times. Making the playoffs in the first place is part of a coach's job, and Norv isn't very good at that.

I'm still not grasping this argument that not making the playoffs at all is better than losing in the playoffs. No matter how much you dumb down your thinking, that just doesn't compute.

Im sorry I seem to think that in his only two years with the Chargers hes made the playoffs and won at least won game each time. How does that equate to him ruining the team?