Rivals and Contenders

[BradyFTW!]

how do people still get away with this fallacy that norv turner dragged sd down? when the simple fact is, that norv turner has been one of their best HC ever (this is statistically factual in terms of afc west titles and playoff wins)


so how do the ******s keep up with this lie that norv dragged sd down?

are they just ******ed?

Maybe because in both years that he's coached the Chargers, they've won 3 games fewer than they did the season before? He took over Schottenheimer's 14-2 team in 2006 and by 2008 they're finishing 8-8. That kind of steady decline is typical of what you see when a bad coach replaces a strong one. Teams that were previously coached well don't fall off a cliff overnight: they tend to retain much of the discipline and fundamental stuff that brought them success before, and then the wheels really start to come off after a couple of years, when you have a) a lot of bad coaching to compensate for, and b) a lot of roster turnover. We saw it when Carroll replaced Parcells, Dallas is seeing it now with Phillips, and San Diego is seeing it with Turner.

Admittedly, the decline of LT and the injury to Merriman has been significant to that, but Rivers is also a much better QB than he was two years ago, and they've brought in talent in other places. IMO the Chargers have the talent to be a 12-4 or better team, but they're just wildly inconsistent from week to week, and inconsistency like that comes from bad coaching. Therefore Norv Turner is a bad coach (as evidenced by every other stop on his resume, as well).

 

[TriplecHamp]

Maybe because in both years that he's coached the Chargers, they've won 3 games fewer than they did the season before? He took over Schottenheimer's 14-2 team in 2006 and by 2008 they're finishing 8-8.

Admittedly, the decline of LT and the injury to Merriman has been significant to that, but Rivers is also a much better QB than he was two years ago, and they've brought in talent in other places. IMO the Chargers have the talent to be a 12-4 or better team, but they're just wildly inconsistent from week to week, and inconsistency like that comes from bad coaching. Therefore Norv Turner is a bad coach (as evidenced by every other stop on his resume, as well).

If they go 8-8 and win the Superbowl this year is he still a bad coach? He gets to the Playoffs and wins games. If you go 14-2 and win the division but lose your first playoff game what the hell did that 14-2 do for you? If you go 8-8 and win the division and advance to lose to the eventual SB champs at Heinz field you are doing something right. Again would you rather go 8-8 and go to the AFC championship game or go 16-0 and lose in the first round?

 

[BradyFTW!]

If they go 8-8 and win the Superbowl this year is he still a bad coach? He gets to the Playoffs and wins games. If you go 14-2 and win the division but lose your first playoff game what the hell did that 14-2 do for you? If you go 8-8 and win the division and advance to lose to the eventual SB champs at Heinz field you are doing something right. Again would you rather go 8-8 and go to the AFC championship game or go 16-0 and lose in the first round?

If you win the Super Bowl, then you've probably coached pretty well. Going 8-8 with the kind of talent that they have is nothing to be proud of, though. All that that says is that the entire division sucks.

So, if the Broncos don't go on a massive skid at the end of the season, the Chargers finish 8-8 and miss the playoffs. Is that a good coaching job or a bad one by Turner? If your answer in that situation is any different than it is now, then that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, because your decision hinges entirely on a completely unrelated issue that was 100% outside of Turner's control.

Saying that an 8-8 season is a coaching success because you barely made it into the playoffs (and lost) is as dumb as saying that Belichick did a crap job in 2008 because the Pats didn't make the playoffs.

BTW, in 11 years as a HC, Turner's teams have made the playoffs three times, and have made it past the divisional round exactly once. Yet you're adamant that "he gets to the playoffs and he wins". Go figure.

 

[TriplecHamp]

If you win the Super Bowl, then you've probably coached pretty well. Going 8-8 with the kind of talent that they have is nothing to be proud of, though. All that that says is that the entire division sucks.

So, if the Broncos don't go on a massive skid at the end of the season, the Chargers finish 8-8 and miss the playoffs. Is that a good coaching job or a bad one by Turner? If your answer in that situation is any different than it is now, then that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, because your decision hinges entirely on a completely unrelated issue that was 100% outside of Turner's control.

Saying that an 8-8 season is a coaching success because you barely made it into the playoffs (and lost) is as dumb as saying that Belichick did a crap job in 2008 because the Pats didn't make the playoffs.

BTW, in 11 years as a HC, Turner's teams have made the playoffs three times, and have made it past the divisional round exactly once. Yet you're adamant that "he gets to the playoffs and he wins". Go figure.

Look at the damn talent we had, did we even make the playoffs? NO we had injuries as did the Chargers. Two of those three times he made it to the playoffs were in the last two years. He didn't have a healthy LT or a Healthy Gates or a Healthy Merriman in any of those playoff games, Marty Ball did and he didn't win a game. Yes going 8-8 and winning the division and advancing to the divisional round is nothing to be ashamed of, going 14-2 and being ousted in your first game is, how do you not understand that. You cannot justify going 14-2 and losing your first game in the playoffs, your the best team in the league and your one and done. Going 8-8 isn't something to be proud of in it self but 8-8, a division title and a playoff win against the league MVP in Overtime shows guts something that the Marty Ball Chargers never had. Winning the Division and advancing to the AFC championship game with out a healthy Rivers, Tomlinson and Gates and loosing 21-12 shows guts how can you just dismiss that because he didn't go 14-2 with all that talent. Look at the Cowboys, they have plenty of talent, when was the last time they won a playoff game? I'm pretty sure if you poll every NFL player would he rather have a great regular season like the Cowboys did two years ago or have a rocky season like the Giants did and get hot and win the Superbowl I can almost guarantee every single one would choose the later and you are trying to convince me that the 14-2 and a division title just to go one and done is better than 8-8 that same division title and actually winning a playoff game. Oh and outside of Turners control? Who the hell won the last game of the season between the two for the Division Title. Turner got it done when it counted.

 

[Deus Irae]

Look at the damn talent we had, did we even make the playoffs? NO we had injuries as did the Chargers. Two of those three times he made it to the playoffs were in the last two years. He didn't have a healthy LT or a Healthy Gates or a Healthy Merriman in any of those playoff games, Marty Ball did and he didn't win a game. Yes going 8-8 and winning the division and advancing to the divisional round is nothing to be ashamed of, going 14-2 and being ousted in your first game is, how do you not understand that. You cannot justify going 14-2 and losing your first game in the playoffs, your the best team in the league and your one and done. Going 8-8 isn't something to be proud of in it self but 8-8, a division title and a playoff win against the league MVP in Overtime shows guts something that the Marty Ball Chargers never had. Winning the Division and advancing to the AFC championship game with out a healthy Rivers, Tomlinson and Gates and loosing 21-12 shows guts how can you just dismiss that because he didn't go 14-2 with all that talent. Look at the Cowboys, they have plenty of talent, when was the last time they won a playoff game? I'm pretty sure if you poll every NFL player would he rather have a great regular season like the Cowboys did two years ago or have a rocky season like the Giants did and get hot and win the Superbowl I can almost guarantee every single one would choose the later and you are trying to convince me that the 14-2 and a division title just to go one and done is better than 8-8 that same division title and actually winning a playoff game. Oh and outside of Turners control? Who the hell won the last game of the season between the two for the Division Title. Turner got it done when it counted.

The Patriots were a 12-4 team that year. I mean, you do realize that, right?

 

[TriplecHamp]

The Patriots were a 12-4 team that year. I mean, you do realize that, right?

In 2006 yes the Pats were 12-4 and they beat a 14-2 team that was the number 1 overall seed.

In 2007 (Norvs first year) the Chargers won the division, beat the Titans, and Colts (with Billy Volek at QB in the fourth Quarter and no LT for most of the game) and lost to New England in the AFC championship game 21-12 without LT, a healthy Gates, and Philip Rivers playing on one knee.

In 2008 The Chargers went 8-8 and defeated the Colts in WW and lost to the eventual Superbowl champs without LT and Merriman.

What was your point?

 

[Deus Irae]

In 2006 yes the Pats were 12-4 and they beat a 14-2 team that was the number 1 overall seed.

In 2007 (Norvs first year) the Chargers won the division, beat the Titans, and Colts (with Billy Volek at QB in the fourth Quarter and no LT for most of the game) and lost to New England in the AFC championship game 21-12 without LT, a healthy Gates, and Philip Rivers playing on one knee.

In 2008 The Chargers went 8-8 and defeated the Colts in WW and lost to the eventual Superbowl champs without LT and Merriman.

What was your point?

The team that beat the Chargers when Marty was the coach is the same team that beat the Chargers when Norv was the coach. The round it happened in doesn't matter. For crying out loud, the Patriots would probably have won the Super Bowl in 2006 if most of the defense hadn't gotten sick and/or injured in the second half of the AFCCG, and the Patriots won the San Diego game only because the Chargers safety McCree didn't bite the dirt after making a pick and Troy Brown made a hell of a play. Blaming that on Marty is asinine.

 

[TriplecHamp]

The team that beat the Chargers when Marty was the coach is the same team that beat the Chargers when Norv was the coach. The round it happened in doesn't matter. For crying out loud, the Patriots would probably have won the Super Bowl in 2006 if most of the defense hadn't gotten sick and/or injured in the second half of the AFCCG, and the Patriots won the San Diego game only because the Chargers safety McCree didn't bite the dirt after making a pick and Troy Brown made a hell of a play. Blaming that on Marty is asinine.

The name was the same but saying that 2006 Pats and the 2007 Pats is just absurd. And It does matter because Norv lead the team to its first playoff victory in over a decade. Im not blaming that loss on Marty at all, Im just saying its stupid to say that Norv is running the team into the ground when he has more playoff wins in his first two years than Marty ever did in his entire stay with the team. The regular seeason records dont mean sh** when you are one and done.

 

[Deus Irae]

The name was the same but saying that 2006 Pats and the 2007 Pats is just absurd. And It does matter because Norv lead the team to its first playoff victory in over a decade. Im not blaming that loss on Marty at all, Im just saying its stupid to say that Norv is running the team into the ground when he has more playoff wins in his first two years than Marty ever did in his entire stay with the team. The regular seeason records dont mean sh** when you are one and done.

But it's not stupid, and you know it. The reality is that the team's win total clearly reflects a decline, and it matches the arrival of Turner. You can try disputing that, but to say it's stupid to argue that Norv is running the team into the ground is incorrect, IMO. It's clearly not a stupid assertion for people to make, whether you agree with it or not, if you base it upon record, which is, after all, how you define a team. The fact that Norv was lucky enough to draw teams that the Chargers match up well against twice in a row in the playoffs doesn't change that.

Again, I defended the Norv hiring, because I don't think he's as bad a head coach as people were making him out to be. However, Marty was/is the far superior coach, and that's been reflected in the respective records thus far.

 

[spacecrime]

18-1
to 11-5

i guess the pats are being dragged down by belichik

get real guys...try and use your brain

I cannot believe you are comparing Belichick with Turner and then tell US to get real and use our brains.

Fact it, Shotty was a lot better than Turner. It wasn't his fault you lost to the Pats in the playoffs. If that idiot Macree had the brains to knock down the pack instead of intercepting it (did he not know it was fourth down?) or at least fall to the ground, you might have a Lombardi.

But your FO panicked and fired him.

And the fans are too stupid to understand that you have great talent on your team but have gone downhill every year Turner has been there.

So yeah, go ahead and say Turner is great because the Pats went from 16-0 to 11-5 is proof Turner=BB. I would expect nothing less from a CHarger fan.

Please go away and play with your CHarger fan buddies and leave us alone.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Man, the crazies really came out in force for this thread.

You know what? Screw it- if you guys want to think that making the playoffs at 8-8 is an accomplishment, go ahead. If you want to think that Norv Turner is a good coach, I just hope AJ Smith continues to agree with you, because the Chargers would be a far better team with a Marty Schottenheimer at the helm.

I'm also willing to bet money that the Chargers *may* make the playoffs this year, on the overall suckiness of the AFC West, but by next year they'll be out.

 

[spacecrime]

getting back to the original purpose of this thread before it was hijacked by the CHarger troll and getting back to PATRIOTS discussion, I tend to agree with Andy's thoughts with the possible exeception of the Colts.

I do think they were extremely lucky last year, especially the first five games, but I hesitate to count them out just yet. And if they do getknocked down, I think it will be because of the emergence of a team in their division. WHich one, I don't know as they each have a serious flaw, but any of the three could take the next step.

Steelers have been in it every year except for one bad year which worked out well because they snagged ROthliesberger. I expect them to continue to be the main opponent.

I don't see anyone in the west as a serious threat at this time.

 

[TriplecHamp]

I cannot believe you are comparing Belichick with Turner and then tell US to get real and use our brains.

Fact it, Shotty was a lot better than Turner. It wasn't his fault you lost to the Pats in the playoffs. If that idiot Macree had the brains to knock down the pack instead of intercepting it (did he not know it was fourth down?) or at least fall to the ground, you might have a Lombardi.

But your FO panicked and fired him.

And the fans are too stupid to understand that you have great talent on your team but have gone downhill every year Turner has been there.

So yeah, go ahead and say Turner is great because the Pats went from 16-0 to 11-5 is proof Turner=BB. I would expect nothing less from a CHarger fan.

Please go away and play with your CHarger fan buddies and leave us alone.

He has just as much of a right to be here as you do. Ever think that maybe he was fired because he never won a playoff game their? I usually hate to insult people but when you say that 14-2 and going one and done is better than 11-5 and advancing to the AFC championship game, I dont think you are a smart football fan. Any knowledgeable football fan knows that teams arnt remembered for what they do in the regular season but what they do in the postseason. The Giants went on an amazing run to beat a 16-0 team in the Superbowl. Which would you rather have that ring or 16-0. Norv Turner has found ways to get his teams into the playoffs recently and actually win games during the postseason how does that make him a bad coach? How does that prove he is running the team into the ground?

 

[Deus Irae]

He has just as much of a right to be here as you do. Ever think that maybe he was fired because he never won a playoff game their? I usually hate to insult people but when you say that 14-2 and going one and done is better than 11-5 and advancing to the AFC championship game, I dont think you are a smart football fan. Any knowledgeable football fan knows that teams arnt remembered for what they do in the regular season but what they do in the postseason. The Giants went on an amazing run to beat a 16-0 team in the Superbowl. Which would you rather have that ring or 16-0. Norv Turner has found ways to get his teams into the playoffs recently and actually win games during the postseason how does that make him a bad coach? How does that prove he is running the team into the ground?

Marty was fired because he didn't get along with the GM. This was public knowledge to the point where the owner publicly stepped in and told them to knock it off.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Marty was fired because he didn't get along with the GM. This was public knowledge to the point where the owner publicly stepped in and told them to knock it off.

This is true but if Marty had won a playoff game or two with the base of his team still healthy i think that he would still be around.

 

[patsfan-1982]

Marty was fired because he didn't get along with the GM. This was public knowledge to the point where the owner publicly stepped in and told them to knock it off.

i argee and not winning a playoff game is not all his falt they did trade away drew brees and went with philip rivers that set them back about 2 year's

 

[Deus Irae]

This is true but if Marty had won a playoff game or two with the base of his team still healthy i think that he would still be around.

Now you're just speculating in a manner that yields a result that makes your argument seem better. I'm not sure how that's supposed to be any less "stupid" than what you claim the other side of the argument is doing.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I usually hate to insult people but when you say that 14-2 and going one and done is better than 11-5 and advancing to the AFC championship game, I dont think you are a smart football fan.

To the contrary, if you think that it's that simple, then you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Matchups matter. If losing to the Patriots is such a fireable offense (according to you, it is), then Bill Cowher, Tony Dungy, and Tom Coughlin (you know, the last three guys to win SBs) and even the Almighty Norv Turner himself should all be canned as well.

 

[TriplecHamp]

To the contrary, if you think that it's that simple, then you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Matchups matter. If losing to the Patriots is such a fireable offense (according to you, it is), then Bill Cowher, Tony Dungy, and Tom Coughlin (you know, the last three guys to win SBs) and even the Almighty Norv Turner himself should all be canned as well.

If loosing to the Patriots was a big deal than why am I argiung when Norv Turner lost to them as well? I am saying losing to the Pats in the first round of the playoffs or anybody for that matter when you are the number 1 overall seed is not to be expected. Ask yourself this why does Norv Turner have a job and why does Marty not have a job?

 

[Deus Irae]

If loosing to the Patriots was a big deal than why am I argiung when Norv Turner lost to them as well? I am saying losing to the Pats in the first round of the playoffs or anybody for that matter when you are the number 1 overall seed is not to be expected. Ask yourself this why does Norv Turner have a job and why does Marty not have a job?

And now you're looping your argument. Marty does not have a job because he and the GM didn't get along. Norv has a job because he hasn't been fired yet. If his team goes 8-8 again, I expect that he'll be done as a head coach, even if they win a playoff game.