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Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by AndyJohnson, May 14, 2009.

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  1. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I think you have to be asleep at the wheel to not recognize that this franchise has put itself in a position where it will be a legitmate SB contender for as long as BB stays. Its gone on too long and through too many challenges and changes to see it as anything other than a better overall plan for a franchise than almost every other one.

    With the coaching staff changes, I don't expect the Colts to ever be a contender again, at least until they rebuild after 4 or so years of mediocrity that is to come.
    In our division, I see all 3 teams as non-threatening. Each seem thoroughly mediocre, equally likely to stay mediocre, improve or digress, but none seem to have reached the point where they are legitimate contenders or a challenge to our supremacy.

    Who do you see as our primary SB competition over the next 4-5 years?

    I think Pittsburgh will always be in the mix, but I see a downward trend for them coming.
    I think they have aged and gone backward in the trenches and were able to mask it short term but over the longterm they will be a playoff team, but not SB caliber.
    I think SD will have to restart with a new coach, new RB and other changes before they could contend for a SB. Norv Turner will not lead a team to a SB as HC in our lifetime, so the day he is fired is the day they start working back up the ladder that he dragged them down.
    Tennesse and Jacksonville are impressive organizations to me. (like Pitt) They are consistent, and both seem like they could get on that run and contend as often as not.
    Baltimore, IMO, is headed backward as the defense ages and declines.

    It seems like the real competition is going to come from a rebuild effort. I kind of see that few of the teams that have been pretty good look able to elevate to the next level, and the teams that have started over have a better chance.
    A lot of those rebuilds have familiar faces, Mangini, McDaniels, Pioli leading them.


    If we assume that we would play in the next 5 consecutive AFCC games (not because we will but to illustrate the point) who would you expect we would face in most of them?

    My guesses would be Tennessee, Jacksonville, Puittsburgh, in that order.
  2. Box_O_Rocks

    Box_O_Rocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Stability...
    -- Pittsburgh: Rooneys, Colbert, Lebeau
    -- Baltimore: Ozzie
    -- Tennessee: Fisher
    -- Indianapolis: Polian

    Indy is being put to the test this year, but Polian is still there for now so discounting them long term isn't in the cards yet.
    Pittsburgh still has key building blocks in place.
    Baltimore is schizophrenic, perhaps due to ownership, but as long as Ozzie is onboard, they'll keep getting good tools to work with.
    Tennessee, Fisher is always to be respected.

    Denver will be back, and I don't discount the Pioli factor in KC. Houston is showing signs of life. Jacksonville under a new GM may evolve, it's early days. The key in Miami is the new owner, just how long he puts of with Parcells will be key. Cleveland is hampered by ownership. Oakland, Cincy, NYJ, Buffalo...more of the same. San Diego A.J. isn't in BB's personnel league despite the hits.
  3. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Hmm, so young AFC teams with a lot of talent and good coaching?
    1. Don't see Pitt falling off a cliff anytime soon
    2. Indy will continue to be pretty good as long as Peyton and Polian are around. Not sure if they'll be a top tier team for the whole time, but they'll be good, at least.
    3. I expect Miami to take a step back this year, but there's no denying that Parcells can build the hell out of a team. They could be strong competitors for a long time, especially if Henne turns out to be the real deal.
    4. If the Chargers ever wise up and get a better coach, they could be in.
    5. I have a lot of faith in Pioli- I wouldn't be surprised if KC is in the mix a lot sooner than one would think.
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
  4. jcdavey

    jcdavey Rookie

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    how do people still get away with this fallacy that norv turner dragged sd down? when the simple fact is, that norv turner has been one of their best HC ever (this is statistically factual in terms of afc west titles and playoff wins)


    so how do the retards keep up with this lie that norv dragged sd down?

    are they just retarded?
  5. TriplecHamp

    TriplecHamp Rookie

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    1) Pittsburgh- The Best Defense in the NFL will always be our mainthreat IMO. I don't care about their offensive line or anything else. They can play tough football and they are almost always in the playoffs. I think we would play them twice.
    2) Indy-As long as Peyton Manning is at QB and they will be our biggest Rival, they always play us extremely tough and they can put points on the board to match ours and they have a fast defense. I think we would play the Colts twice.
    3) Baltimore/Tennessee/San Diego-I put all of these teams in the same boat. All can play defense (some better than others...Baltimore) and all have good young QB (some better than others....Baltimore) and all can run the football. The combination of these three makes for a good contenders. I think that we could play any of these teams in order at least once.


    The Nemesis.......The New York Giants are the toughest team we could face in the Superbowl, IMO when healthy the are just as good if not better than Pittsburgh. Outstanding Pass Rush, Outstanding Run Game, Good young QB (debatable). I cant see them squandering a 14 point lead in the 4Th quarter or even the third for that matter. They are the best team in the NFC in the toughest division. I actually like how our division got tougher because it will prepare us for January and February. This is the one team I don't want to see come February but they are beatable.
  6. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Rookie

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    Andy,

    I thoroughly agree.

    Few seem to recognize that the present Patriots are not in any way related to the Super bowl winning Teams of the first half decade. Those teams had a dominant Defense with older veterans almost all gone now. As a matter of fact the only players still there are Bruschi, and Seymour and Warren on Defense. But those last two weren't really the core of those Super bowl clubs, although Seymour casts a very big shadow.

    But three players doesn't make a Defense. All the others are rebuilding projects or added in the past half decade. All that remains is to find another Pass rushing OLB and Crabel may be it. And find a replacement fro Bruschi when he retires . And McKenzie may already be it.

    On Offense the situation is similar. The older Offensive stars are Brady Light, Neal and Kevin Faulk. Everyone else is essentially new. The Offense is slightly older than the Defense but only because Belichick rebuilt it two or three seasons ago. The 2007 edition of the Patriots Offense bore no relationship to the plodding, dink and dunk Offenses of the earlier era.

    We began to resemble the Colts,with record setting passing Offense. In 2008 we added back the running game and now that Offense is the best or near best in the League. In short, the dynasty has been regenerated and reconstituted without anyone really noticing. it is set to be fine for four or five years without a whole lot more tinkering to do to it.

    What little remains is to start finding transitional Offensive linemen to take Light and Neal's jobs in three or four years. And Belichick has even embarked on that endeavor with Volmer and Ornberg. He will probably add another OL high, next draft season just as he adds another DE--> OLB candidate,as well.

    With what he has as draft picks he might even decide to trade up to get a pair of star candidates, for those two positions. That is if Crabel and Woods fail, and Volmer can't project to LOT, eventually.

    BB has reconstructed his new younger, faster, JUGGERNAUT without any one paying attention, or noticing.

    Our present fans are wailing and gnashing their teeth over what amounts to the the identity of the backup, reserve SOLB behind newly promoted starter Pierre Woods. And the fact that the pass rush disappeared when half the pass rushers went on IR, even as the injury scarred Defense finished in the Top Ten, with a sack total down by all of 9 sacks from the average of the last decade.

    They wail over the TD scoring percentage in the Red Zone, not recognizing that Red Zone visits by opponents were the lowest number of any team in the League. Bend but don't Break broke most opponents Offenses long before they reached our red zone.

    As to who will be our future competition, I would not rule to the Chiefs. The previous regime had laid a good foundation for rebuilding by securing a valid LOT,and a few other good, young Offensive linemen. They also added some good Defensive linemen, Linebackers, and Defensive backs. Then Pioli got there and added a franchise QB in the form of Matt Cassel. I agree the Steelers will have a reconstruction coming. As will the Chargers.

    If the TUNA breaks tradition and sticks around in Miami, he will whip that franchise back into a contender. But he will have to take a few steps back, as the Single Wing will return to the history books. It didn't fool anybody in the last quarter of the season, after the novelty wore off.

    I'll even add a novel idea. Houston has been steadily building, they just might break out into a legitimate contender. Remember that the Colts are an Offense in search of a complementary Defense. But Peyton is now 35, and how many more years does he have?
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
  7. dhamz

    dhamz Rookie

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    14-2 the year before him
    11-5 his first year
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  8. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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  9. jcdavey

    jcdavey Rookie

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    i guess the pats are being dragged down by belichik

    get real guys...try and use your brain
  10. dhamz

    dhamz Rookie

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    Yeah - comparing a guy with 3 rings to a guy whose career coaching record is 77-95 is a good comparison.

    The year before Norv came the Chargers were considered by most the best team in football. Two years later they are a .500 team that only made the playoffs because they played in the worst division in football.
  11. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If the same question was asked 5 years ago, would anyone have predicted that the Steelers would win the Super Bowl twice, Patriots, Giants, and Colts once.
  12. dhamz

    dhamz Rookie

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    The Giants? Probably not but I think a lot of people would have had the other 3 teams on the top of their lists of title contenders.
  13. jcdavey

    jcdavey Rookie

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    no rings since the spygate ;-)
  14. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Pittsburgh is our AFC rival as of now, and for at least a couple of years.
    ===========================
    I agree that Indy will not survive the loss of Dungy. The jags and houston are improving.

    I think that baltimore is still in the mix for a couple of years. After that. who knows.

    The division is ours.

    The big question I ahve is out west. What a mess! For now, the chargers are the best until shown otherwise.
  15. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't see any reason to believe that the Steelers, Colts and Chargers won't continue to be playoff teams due to their front offices and understanding of how to be competitive in the salary cap era. With Parcells in Miami I'll add the Dolphins to this group, but his past history suggests that he may not be there for very long. The fifth team I would add is the Chiefs since they now have Pioli, but KC won't be there for another year or two in my opinion.

    On the other end of the spectrum the teams most likely to continue to fail would be the Bengals and the Raiders, though I suppose that is stating the obvious.
  16. patsox23

    patsox23 Rookie

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    I wouldn't bet on Tennessee or Jacksonville in the next couple of years, 'though maybe down the line. I expect both to drop off in 2009. While Tennessee especially has good coaching and F.O., I think they'll feel the effect of Haynesworth's absence and the unlikelihood of Kerry Collins repeating a pretty impressive 2008.
  17. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah, not to split hairs etc, but as of a month or 2 ago Peyton Manning was 32. He turned 33 about 6 weeks ago, and says he expects to play 7-8 more years. As long as he's still around, they'll probably be a contender.
  18. Mike the Brit

    Mike the Brit Minuteman Target PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Any team with a strong defense, a competent coach and a decent quarterback has to be reckoned with. So those AFC teams are good choices.

    But the swings of the NFL are always great. It's hard to believe that a team that the Patriots *crushed* last season almost won the Superbowl. So it wouldn't surprise me if the Dolphins went forward from last year. And then there's the NFC teams: Giants, certainly, and I wouldn't bet against the Eagles (but then I say that every year ...)
  19. TriplecHamp

    TriplecHamp Rookie

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    Are you seriously trying to say that the "Marty Ball" Chargers were a better team than the Norv Turner Chargers?:singing: Wow! Marty's Playoff record-5-13...Norv Turner-4-3. 3 of those playoff wins by Norv are with the Chargers. The Chargers hadn't won a playoff game since 1994. That's why Norv has been more successful with the Chargers than Marty. I don't know how anybody could say that he has ruined the Chargers when he led them to their first playoff victory in over a decade. Both coaches got their teams to the playoffs, Norv actually won a few games. Would you rather go 14-2 win the division and be one and done or go 8-8, win the division being one of the hottest teams in the NFL and advance to the divisional round? He was even one win from being in the Superbowl.
    Last edited: May 14, 2009
  20. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    :confused:

    The Chargers of 2006 were 14-2. The reason they didn't win in the playoffs is because the Patriots beat them.

    The Chargers of 2007 were 11-5. The reason they didn't get to the Super Bowl is because the Patriots beat them. Both teams they beat in the playoffs were teams they beat in the regular season.

    Trying to pin that playoff loss nonsense on Schottenheimer about this is simply ridiculous. Marty took a team that hadn't had a winning season in 6 years and had only 1 losing season in his 5 year tenure. Turner's currently got the team trending in the opposite direction, much like the Pete Carroll trend when he took over the Patriots. It's even worse, though, because Parcells never got the Patriots to any more than 11 wins and had 2 losing seasons out of 4.

    And I'm someone who defended the Turner hiring.
  21. HEY BRO! WHAT UP?

    HEY BRO! WHAT UP? Banned

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    In the AFC, the only team that can beat the Patriots is the Patriots. However, if the Giants can claw their way back to the super bowl, they have proven to match up with the Pats.

    Other notable AFC teams

    Tennessee is a fluke and will come back down to reality when they have a first place schedule. They will get pounded by New England when they meet in December.

    Miami will struggle as well playing a first place schedule not to mention playing the Patriots twice a year.

    Pittsburgh got to the super bowl by default. Had Brady been healthy, Pittsburgh would have eventually been eliminated by New England. I can't wait for the Pats to take out the "super bowl champs".

    Indy is done! They may have a good record but they will always be that team that has an early exit in the playoffs. Last year is a good example. The Colts were 12-4 and lost to an 8-8 Chargers team in the first round without Shawne Merriman and a hobbling LT. The Colts will scratch and claw to win games with no legit deep threat and a struggling ground game. Also, their defense will continue to get pounded up the middle until they find a legit NT and DT.

    San Diego is just about done. LT is looking pretty old and I don't Sproles carrying the load. Rivers is as inconsistent as they come. Same can be said about their WR's. However, I see their defense improving with the addition of Merriman and English.

    I laughed when I saw Jacksonville as a contender.
    Last edited: May 15, 2009
  22. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Wow! The kool aid is flowing like a river around this thread.

    I think you just picked off all 6 AFC playoff contenders from last yr, in one fatal swoop. I guess there's really no competition for our team now:confused:

    Why even play the season this yr, when there isn't the slightest bit of competition? (Beside the league's 3rd hardest schedule)

    Then you have the almighty Giants who finished their season 1-5 down the stretch. But wait, they actually beat us by 3 whole points once. In a game where 17 different fate-like things had to happen when they were down 7-3 in the beginning of the 4th quarter. I know they'd just pound us into the ground just like last time:D

    Everyone has their own opinion, so I've enjoyed hearing yours. It's certainly brightened up my day;)

    Myself, I like our chances to compete, just like every year. Depending on injuries, fate, and the 'any given sunday' rule, I hope to win 12 or so games and make the playoffs this year.
  23. nashvillepatsfan

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    JC, thats a dumb comparison, and you know it. You're a much better poster than that. As for Norv, I guess people can debate whether the chargers are better with, or without him. I personally just don't like the guy. I thought he made some of the most boneheaded calls when he was Miamis OC, and havent respected him as a coach since. SD is pretty loaded with talent. When Norv took over, would he have had the same kind of success if he didnt have LT? I just think he he inherited a great roster. If he was coaching, lets say the Jets, I just don't think he would be successful. IMO :D
  24. nashvillepatsfan

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    NOW THAT WAS A LOW BLOW JC :banned: :D
  25. Miguel

    Miguel Patriots Salary Cap Guru PatsFans.com Supporter

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    In 2004 the general consensus on this board was that Peyton's contract would prevent the Colts from winning the SB during his term of the contract. This time in 2004 the Steelers were coming off a 6-10 season.
  26. zoostation

    zoostation Rookie

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    No offense.......but that’s equivalent to saying Byron Scott was the best coach the LA clippers ever had. Simply doesn't carry much weight.
  27. dhamz

    dhamz Rookie

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    I was not speaking of this board. The consensus on this board is always that the Colts are falling apart. The national opinion had the Colts as preseason Super Bowl favorites in 2004. The Steelers were off a down year but they had a coach/GM combo that had a proven track record of winning a lot of games.

    The Colts and Pats would have been 1-2 on most people's lists and the Steelers in the top 5.
  28. dhamz

    dhamz Rookie

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    This is exactly right. The Chargers playoff "success" under Turner and failure under Marty is all about match-ups. Well, that and the extra round that they've gotten to play the last 2 years which is 2 of Norv's playoff wins. They match up great with the Colts, they don't match up well with the Pats.
    Last edited: May 15, 2009
  29. smg93

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    If people think that Norv is the answer for San Diego, I'm not going to argue with them. I think that'll only help the Pats in the long run
  30. patsfan-1982

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    #1 are bigest rival/contender is the steelers say what you want about ben hamburger lol he is a good young QB with 2 rings and will be in the HOF the hart of there D is there LB they are all young and the best in the NFL they are not going any where


    #2 the colts i dont care who the HC is as long as payton is the QB they are a SB contender


    #3 the chargers if there D gets better they can make some noise in the playoffs

    #4 the ravens only if there young QB can step up


    as far as the AFC east go's

    #1 the jets if there new QB becomes a star


    #2 the fins but they may take a step back this year and pennington is not known to play a full 16 game's one of the reasons why the jets let him go and there starting LB are older then our's i dont see them being a good team for year's to come


    #3 the bills they started off 4-0 last year then they fell apart and they had the worst offseason of any team this yer they signed T.O to help the young QB and become more of a passing team but then for the life of me cant see why they would trade there all pro LT thats going to help the young QB there RB has a 3 game suspension i dont see them doing anything this year
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