RFA Tenders: Mankins 1+3, Gost 2, Woods ROFR [merged]

[DaBruinz]

Re: Update: Mankins 1+3, Gost 2, Woods ROFR]Merged several times

That's true. But it breaks down like this - 8 for 8 as a rookie and 1 for 3 since.

It's true he didn't cost them the game directly, but by that same logic, Graham didn't cost the Bengals the game against the Jets either. He missed 2 FGs and they lost by 10. Sure there are momentum swings, but it's hard to quantify those. When Gost missed the kick against Baltimore, it was the 4th quarter with only 7:24 left in the game. That's a lot different than Graham's situation. The first one would have brought the Bengals to within 4 and could have swung the momentum. It certainly would have changed the game because the Jets marched back down the field for a score.

I'm not going to counter your argument because I like Gostkowski as a kicker and I would love for him to get signed to a long term deal here. But at the same time, I don't think he's so good that he'd be worth losing a 2nd round pick. So if some delusional team, like say the Jets or Colts wants to sign him and give us their 2nd round pick, I'll would love that too. As much as everyone loves to point to Chad Jackson and Wheatley, that pick could just as easily turn into the next Branch, Light, or Vollmer. Based on previous drafting, there's a 50-50 chance that a 2nd round pick turns into a significant impact player.

But you are ignoring a couple of serious issues if you let the Colts or Jets sign him. One is that you now have to face him once or twice a year.

The other is that you are now put into a situation of finding a new kicker at a time when the pickings are extremely slim both in free agency and of those in the draft. So, while you might gain the 2nd rounder, it's honestly being short-sighted and you are hurting an important part of your game. One that actually influences the offense and defense quite a bit. It influences the offense because if you don't have a kicker you can trust, it means you are forced to either punt more often or try to extend drives deeper into your opponents zones, which can end up giving your opponent a shorter field. Not to mention that on the defensive side, your opponents can end up with a shorter field on kick offs. This puts more pressure on the special teams coverage unit and the defense in general.

So, unless you know there is a kicker available whom you can sign, I think that Gostkowski tendered as a 2nd is a bad move because it has the potential to do more harm then good.

 

[bucky]

Re: Update: Mankins 1+3, Gost 2, Woods ROFR]Merged several times

But you are ignoring a couple of serious issues if you let the Colts or Jets sign him. One is that you now have to face him once or twice a year.

The other is that you are now put into a situation of finding a new kicker at a time when the pickings are extremely slim both in free agency and of those in the draft. So, while you might gain the 2nd rounder, it's honestly being short-sighted and you are hurting an important part of your game. One that actually influences the offense and defense quite a bit. It influences the offense because if you don't have a kicker you can trust, it means you are forced to either punt more often or try to extend drives deeper into your opponents zones, which can end up giving your opponent a shorter field. Not to mention that on the defensive side, your opponents can end up with a shorter field on kick offs. This puts more pressure on the special teams coverage unit and the defense in general.

So, unless you know there is a kicker available whom you can sign, I think that Gostkowski tendered as a 2nd is a bad move because it has the potential to do more harm then good.

I won't argue that he's the best FA on the market. Right now, there are a number of guys who are just a notch below though - Rackers, Feely, Graham, Dawson. I would rather have one of those guys and a 2nd round pick than Gost. I imagine so would most of the teams in the league. I can indeed foresee a situation where all the UFA kickers get signed and then someone comes and makes Gost an offer sheet with a poison pill. That, to me, is the worst case scenario. The Pats would then be in position to take the pick and do the same thing they did 4 years ago - have a competition between a washed up vet (like Folk or Stover) and a rookie. I'm not an expert on the Kickers in the draft. Supposedly they're not great, but that's what was said about the 2006 draft as well.

 

[VJCPatriot]

So breaking it down, BB doesn't want to risk losing Mankins.
He believes that a 2nd round pick would be more beneficial than a good kicker, as do I.
He feels Woods is eminently replaceable. I agree.
Brilliant!

If nobody bites on Gost, I'm fine with that. If someone tenders him a big money contract, I take the 2nd round pick and run! Gost's replacement will just need to be found in FA or the 4th round or later of the draft.

 

[ayjackson]

For the record, I'm with BBfan. Nobody will offer up a 2nd rounder in this draft for a kicker.

And if they did, I'm not sure Belichick would match. He wouldn't make a (top of the) market offer for Vinitieri, why would he do so for Gostkowski?

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Re: Tenders from PFW in Progress

Wait, wait, we heard very loud and persistent complaints and snarky comments because Woods was rumored to get a 2nd round tender. Now it turns out that he is getting the lowest possible tender?

Turns out the people making the loud and persistent complaints and snarky comments were correct in their assessment that Pierre Woods was not worth a second round tender. The Patriots seem to agree.

As far as the Ghost, I think it's unlikely any team would give up a second rounder this offseason for him. He almost certainly will be on the team in 2010 and hopefully be signed to multiyear deal.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Yeah well. Everyone is right sometimes. It's interesting to read all the same arguments over and over again. The good thing about this move is we'll actually see whether our arguments play themselves out.

I would rate the candidate for Gost like this:

Colts and Jets - have low 2nd round picks, high need for a Kicker and would love to stick it to us. Sexy Rexy might already be on his way over to Gostkowski's house with a poison pill in hand. "guaranteed $20 million bonus if playing on a team where a guy named Brady takes at least 1 snap".

Cowboys, Cardinals, Ravens, Bengals - other 4 teams with low 2nd round picks and relative need. Still, they'll all probably opt to resign their own kickers and save the 2nd round pick.

Everybody else - not an option, as each team is either set at the position, or has a pick in the top half of the 2nd round.

As in all things, it only takes one. I just find it interesting a PK BB felt strongly enough to spend a 4th round pick on when trying to replace a legendary PK is left relatively exposed. I can understand the argument to use the lower tender to keep from setting a financial precedent, I just wonder who the Personnel department have on their board since I haven't done any looking at PK in this draft. The veteran PKs out there are the usual motley crew...although Shane Graham might be good for another couple seasons.

 

[RayClay]

I can't believe people getting suicidal we might need to accept a second round pick for gost.

Remember, he couldn't possibly replace Vinatieri. We might have to spend a 5th or something for the best college kicker even though he couldn't possibly replace Gostowski.

And on it goes:bricks:

 

[RayClay]

So, despite our disarray at the position, no protection for Woods.

Could this mean we finally?.......

 

[VJCPatriot]

As in all things, it only takes one. I just find it interesting a PK BB felt strongly enough to spend a 4th round pick on when trying to replace a legendary PK is left relatively exposed.

Umm, yup. Just think over what you just said. BB felt strongly enough about a kicker to spend a FOURTH round pick. If that kicker gets signed by another team, the Pats get a SECOND round pick. One of these things is more valuable than the other!

And the Pats have a FOURTH round pick to spend this year on a new kicker if somebody decides to give them a SECOND round pick for Gostkowski. Come off the ledge, it's not that bad if you think about it without a sentimental filter.

PS I'll grant that Gostkowski is a good PK but he is FAR from LEGENDARY.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

PS I'll grant that Gostkowski is a good PK but he is FAR from LEGENDARY.

Reading comprehension has been very very good to dyslexia? :confused2:

BB spent a fourth because he felt that was what was needed to land the PK he wanted. Now if there is a Gostkowski in this draft class that's great, I'll be happy to get another youngster and pick up another 2nd, but I haven't done any homework on the PK to have a guess.

 

[VJCPatriot]

BB spent a fourth because he felt that was what was needed to land the PK he wanted. Now if there is a Gostkowski in this draft class that's great, I'll be happy to get another youngster and pick up another 2nd, but I haven't done any homework on the PK to have a guess.

Time to start looking then!! Well you could wait till Gostkowski was made an offer first, but then it might be too late. Maybe BB knows something we don't about this year's draft class at kicker/punter. First he lets Hanson go, then he puts only the 2nd round tender on Gostkowski. Hmm yes, I think so. Very likely!

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Time to start looking then!! Well you could wait till Gostkowski was made an offer first, but then it might be too late. Maybe BB knows something we don't about this year's draft class at kicker/punter. First he lets Hanson go, then he puts only the 2nd round tender on Gostkowski. Hmm yes, I think so. Very likely!

Punter - I'm good there, just don't know yet if he's looking at the same kid.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Time to start looking then!! Well you could wait till Gostkowski was made an offer first, but then it might be too late. Maybe BB knows something we don't about this year's draft class at kicker/punter. First he lets Hanson go, then he puts only the 2nd round tender on Gostkowski. Hmm yes, I think so. Very likely!

I doubt it. Any replacement for Gostkowski would be a downgrade.

And to those who said he'd rather have the second than Gostkowski, that's not correct. He sees the 2 as sufficient value to compensate for the loss, but that doesn't mean that's what he'd rather have happen.