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Revisiting The Richard Seymour Trade - Oakland Raiders Fans Not Happy

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by NG Pats Fan, Oct 9, 2012.

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  1. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #3 Jersey

    Yup.

    The Revisionism on The Seymour Trade is amusing, in its own way.

    But in all fairness: These things don't happen in a Vacuum: there's no guarantee that Seymour ~ or Clemens ~ would've righted'is ship if he hadn't received a firm boot'n the @$$.
     
  2. Off The Grid

    Off The Grid Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    #3 Jersey

    Off The Grid Goes Dien Bien Phu, Chapter #847

    The idiocy of continuing to insist that it was a choice between jettisoning Seymour or Wilfork ~ or Mankins ~ astonishes me.

    Had my advice been taken then ~ rather than one long year later ~ we could've jettisoned Randy Moss and'is bloated contract...and gotten one HELL of a lot more than a 3rd Rounder for'm. :rolleyes:

    And we could've kept all of those guys...

    NOT that it pleases me to be in Accord with Deuce Awry, you understand...

    HELL...

    If I'D been running the Books, we would've Tagged & Traded Moss IMMEDIATELY after'is 23 TouchDown 2007 Season...and probably gotten CONSECUTIVE 1st Rounders out'f'm...maybe from the SKINS.

    But I digress...
     
  3. ATippett56

    ATippett56 Pro Bowl Player

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    HELL!

    I'd like to jettison Steven Gregory and his contract, no matter how inconsequential the salary cap hit.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012
  4. supafly

    supafly PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #24 Jersey

    Tip--

    So far this year, you want to jettison Donald Thomas, Ryan Wendell, Marcus Cannon, Sterling Moore, Steve Gregory, at least ONE of Vereen/Woodhead, and probably many more that I can't think of.

    I am in agreement with you with some of them, at least the fact that they should not be starting...but if you ran the team we'd only have about 30 guys on it :D

    All of those guys will have roles here in some form or another, whether that is starting, providing rotational reps, or just providing depth for injuries and practice reps during the week.

    You so often bring up the salary cap....think about it.
     
  5. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Always thought the there were behind the scenes mitigating circumstances that caused Seymour to leave(Malloy also), perhaps having grown up in paranoid times dictates my skepticism.

    Some day when Bill writes the trilogy of what happened here, we may begin to know the whole story, but until then we wait for all of this to unfold..
     
  6. convertedpatsfan

    convertedpatsfan PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    It was forgotten because it was Felger who made the claim, and then he went back against it.

    http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/269911-felger-wilfork-talked-about-raiders-first.html

    Felger says Wilfork was offered to Raiders [Archive] - KFFL Community

    Both of these threads started with the Patriots offering Wilfork to the Raiders, then both threads mention a reversal from Felger who said maybe it was the Raiders who inquired.

    In the first link, a poster heard Lombardi's version saying the Raiders asked about Wilfork which coincides with Felger's reversal.

    No one can be really certain what is said behind closed doors. But I wouldn't consider Felger much of a source. Might as well start quoting your uncle Bob who watches football on Thanksgiving as a reliable source.
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2012
  7. PATSYLICIOUS

    PATSYLICIOUS Pro Bowl Player

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    #12 Jersey

    This was a rumor, I remember reading about it too. To my knowledge it was never proven as fact, unless you have a legit trusted source with a link.
     
  8. patsfan-1982

    patsfan-1982 In the Starting Line-Up

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    i was never happy about the trade at the time they did trade a all pro DT in he's prime for a pick in two years but in the long run it worked out for the pats and they learned from mistakes by signing Gronk and hernandez long term befor the price for TE's goes to high,


    when Seymour wanted a new contract the price was only about 9 or 10 million per when they trade it him the price was 12 to 14 million per
     
  9. Armchair Quarterback

    Armchair Quarterback In the Starting Line-Up

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    #37 Jersey

    Rather than an either/or with Wilfork and Seymour, with the benefit of hindsight, the miscalculation was tying up Warren over Seymour. Talk about being invisible after signing a contract. The quality of his play went downhill soon after he signed along with his health and seemingly, his commitment.
     
  10. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    As Solder develops he seems to have the tools to be able to handle speed rushers. If (when) he can handle them 1 on 1 without help that is a huge bonus for the offense.
     
  11. patsfan13

    patsfan13 Hall of Fame Poster PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah I seriously doubt that the Pats offered Wilfolk before Big Sey.

    A guy who can Play NT at the Elite level as well as play DT at and Elite level is harder to find than a player who can play at the Elite level at the DT/DE position.

    When you add in the age factor of the 2 Wilfolk was much more valuable to the Pats at that point in time.

    Getting the prime of Big Sey's career then flipping that for a guy with the potential to be you LT for 10 years is a great deal for the Pats.

    No need to knock Seymour, he was great while he was here and probably his first couple of years in Oakland, but the move was the right one for the Pats.
     
  12. Patriot Missile

    Patriot Missile Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Yeah, he was the one being blatantly held from behind on the should been holding/or could of been sack play that would of sealed the win.
     
  13. IllegalContact

    IllegalContact Pro Bowl Player

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    its all about ROI once a player is deemed to be on his way

    it's not about whether or not the pats should have moved seymour. It's about whether it was the best time to move him and was the ROI a sound move.

    I understand making the move, and I think the compensation was pretty good.

    but it is a fact that this team has still not recovered defensively from the removal of seymour and warren on consecutive years. was it because of them? well, it forced the team away from the 3-4 which I do not believe was what BB wanted

    dominant 3-4 DE's aren't a dime a dozen
     
  14. SeymourTrophies

    SeymourTrophies Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    At the time of the trade, I was livid because telling Jarvis Green to do Seymour's job was giving up on the defense for that year. I got the trade value aspect, and I'm happy with that now. At the time, I was not okay with essentially giving up on the defense for that season because, as a fan, you don't want to hear that a season is going to be a waste while it's going on.

    To be better in the trenches in the immediate future in a season where we wouldn't have done much anyway was not as crucial as having a rock in the middle of the line tied down for years to come, the A Football Life bit on BB had a scene where Kraft talked about how trading Seymour freed up money for Vince. I get it. I just wasn't happy to know I was watching a season that was given up on early.
     
  15. 51Hits

    51Hits On the Game Day Roster

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    Recovered from what?

    When they had Seymour and Warren from 03-09. (might be off a year) the defense was mediocre/awful between 05-09 (07 the offense certainly masked the D)

    I think the defense is better this year than its been in years simply because the front 7 has improved. Jones looks amazing, Kyle Love has proven to be a good player, hell Cunningham has had a bit of a coming out party even.
     
  16. 51Hits

    51Hits On the Game Day Roster

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    Are you sure asking Green to step up for Seymour for one year was really giving up? Green stepped up bigtime when Seymour went down in 04. Didn't he have a good post season for us in 03 as well? BB was counting on a player for one season that stepped up a few times before. Our pass rush was just as bad in 09 as it was in 08 WITH Seymour. Granted our run D suffered without him, but I'll trade a good run defender anyday for a first round pick. JMO anyway
     
  17. BradyFTW!

    BradyFTW! PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #12 Jersey

    None of this addresses any of the points that I made. Good work destroying the straw man that you created, though. Expertly done.
     
  18. rookBoston

    rookBoston 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    #12 Jersey

    Seymour is not what's wrong with the Raiders D. The premise of the thread is sketchy.

    In the structure of the trade, the value for the Raiders was in the first years after the trade. The value for the Pats was back loaded because the pick was deferred for 2 years. At the time of the trade, Pats fans were pulling their hair out because the roster had a hole, and nothing to point to as fair value in exchange. As time passes, it feels better for us because we have Solder on the field and improving every week. And the Raiders fans are pulling their hair out because Seymour is in his decline, the upside is behind them, and they're doing the woulda, shoulda, coulda game. Pretty predictable.

    I do think the Seymour trade is an example of Belichick at his best as a GM, deriving top value from an impossible situation, where he had more elite talent than he could afford to keep under the cap.

    But, as with any good trade, it was fair value for the Raiders too. They were horrible, but most importantly, they had a losing team culture. Bringing someone like Seymour in from a winning franchise was as much for his on-field play as his locker room influence.

    The fact that the Raiders D has not improved is not something you can hang on any single DT. I think you have to hang that on their front office. Stupid of Raiders fans to think that one trade, no matter how bad they think it was, is the lynchpin of their crappiness.
     
  19. SeymourTrophies

    SeymourTrophies Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    I think the masses were optimistic at the time that Green could hold his own on 1st and 2nd down and contribute more on passing downs. I didn't think Green was going to be sufficient; I was right once in a row. In the end, Green sucked and that was partly because he was hurt. Green was a situational player, but we lost his ability to step up in that passing down role because he was worn down from the increased workload. There's plenty of reason to believe BB thought Green could contribute more in the passing game without conceding too much in the run, but it didn't work that way.

    To beat an already long dead horse, Seymour gave up an average of a whole yard less on his side in the run game than in the middle or the other side and had a career high amount of sacks in 08. The Ravens ran all over Green in the playoffs and I cursed that trade multiple times. The pass rush absolutely sucked with and without Seymour, but that's not really a biss hoss's job.

    The trade was the right decision, largely because the deal Seymour signed with the Raiders was ridiculous. We got Solder out of it, so I'm happy. I just wasn't crazy about what I viewed as conceding defeat on the defensive side of the ball, though it's not like one run-stuffing 3-4 end was going to save all of the issues that defense had. It's just not something a fan in the heat of the moment is going to be happy about.
     
  20. patfanken

    patfanken Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Another point that has to be made in this Seymour thread was the fact that there was a good chance that when his contract ran out no amount of money was going to get Seymour to stay. Well that might be a bit of hyperbole, but he certainly wasn't going to take a "hometown discount". Quite the opposite the Pats might have had to play MORE to keep him. So when you add in who they they couldn't keep if they managed to keep Seymour. His injury situation, and seemingly deteriorating play. Trading him and getting a #1 pick was a huge win.

    The fact is that NO player is really worth top 3 money, with the exception perhaps of a QB. Its almost impossible for a player to play to the value of those huge contracts. And its not just examples like Chris Johnson that are cautionary. Just look right at home to Logan Mankins. Its not like he isn't still a great OG, but has be played like he's the best these last 2 years? I don't think so.

    So when you get into these situations like Seymour and now Welker, your heart might want to say yes yes yes, but history is pretty conclusive that you'd better say no. The sad fact is that although it might seem improbable right now, its more likely than not, that both Gronk and Hernandez will be viewed at some point in their contract as being vastly overpaid as injury and age erode their skills

    That's why I don't understand the constant yammering of the "pay them" crowd, when history has so often proved that "paying them what the want" simply doesn't work.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2012
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