Revisiting the offensive line guard position

[RayClay]

This isn't a "trade up for a top ten guard thread" so please "respect the thread" and i won't argue in the draft thread.

It is my guess that the Pats are happy to have Stork and so will eventually have three cornerstones for now and future bigger contracts.

I further believe they still want to go big and want to get some hard working value players like the present two, but more physical. If so, Wendell has increased value now that he absolutely can play guard and center (and he's younger) so our two guards are potential swing players going forward.

Furthermore, since we are getting great play from at least two "busts", humor me that many players can look awful, then become very good with practice, especially at O Line.

Every player and PS player has an advantage over newbies, but we can consider low-no cost pickups this year.

Having said that, we have two games to work in some players, Connolly's injured (Reiss guesses inactive) so who would you like to get a chance for some time at any O line position, for the playoffs and for a look ahead to training camp.

Next year's draft is interesting, but since we can't play them now, irrelevant to this thread.

I think this covers our developmental players including PS. Thoughts?

Kline
Cannon
Devey,
Fleming
Barker
Hauptmann

 

[mgteich]

I see no reason to risk injury to Brady by playing Practice Team players at OG. This experiment was tried in the first few games. So, no, I don't think that this is the time for experiments. There is a long off-season and preseason where we can find out what we have at guard.

That being said, I believe the Connolly and Fleming are injured and won't play much if at all in the next couple of games. So, Kline will likely start at LG, as he did for a time last year. But that isn't anything new; it is just "next man up".

I think that the time has come to stop listing Cannon as an OG.

So, we have Wendell (on a 1 year contract), Fleming, Kline, Devey and Barker going into 2015. IMHO, Connolly makes a serious difference. Fleming may be a future starter, or not. In any case, he should be a fine backup. Then, we have Wendell/Fleming at one guard spot. Unless we add someone, we have Kline/Devey/Barker at the other spot.

I think that we will re-sign Connolly AND draft an OG or two.

 

[Oswlek]

This experiment was tried in the first few games.

Considering the experiment continued against Buffalo and the Jets with reasonable success, it is safe to say that the first four games were due to a lot more factors than just who was on the field.

 

[dliverey]

Kline played really well when he filled in after Connolly left the game against Miami. I would like to see more from him at LG. I do not think that Connolly should be resigned due to age and he can be replaced with a current player and a drafted OG for the future.

 

[manxman2601]

I presume they know what they want from Fleming and i'm certain that it's not to be a 6th OL all his career. Either he's here to play OG or he's the RT of the future, or at least that's how they envisage his future I would guess. That leaves Wendell, maybe re-signing Connolly for a year plus a draft pick or FA and then maybe another draft pick to develop. without having the ear of the OL coach, it's hard to know whether they think Devey, Kline et al have any developmental future. So, as I see it:

Fleming - LG
Wendell - RG
Draft pick
Some combination of Connolly/FA/draft Pick/Kline, Devey etc
Cannon who backs up all OL positions except center.

 

[manxman2601]

Kline played really well when he filled in after Connolly left the game against Miami. I would like to see more from him at LG. I do not think that Connolly should be resigned due to age and he can be replaced with a current player and a drafted OG for the future.

The advantage to Connolly is that, like Wendell, he backs up the centre position. There is some value in that.

 

[mgteich]

I presume they know what they want from Fleming and i'm certain that it's not to be a 6th OL all his career. Either he's here to play OG or he's the RT of the future, or at least that's how they envisage his future I would guess. That leaves Wendell, maybe re-signing Connolly for a year plus a draft pick or FA and then maybe another draft pick to develop. without having the ear of the OL coach, it's hard to know whether they think Devey, Kline et al have any developmental future. So, as I see it:

Fleming - LG
Wendell - RG
Draft pick
Some combination of Connolly/FA/draft Pick/Kline, Devey etc
Cannon who backs up all OL positions except center.

I would fine with keeping our current OL, by re-signing Connolly and adding a draftee to replace Devey. We would be a bit better in 2015, and better plead for the future. IMHO, this presumes that Solder is signed to a long-term contract. If he is here only for 2105, we could need to draft an OT, replacing kline on the roster.

The keys are the decisions with regard to Solder and Connolly. We will know about Solder before the season begins and hopefully also about Connolly at that time. In any case, we will know long before the draft.
======
AN ASIDE
I'm sure the hope is that Fleming will start. Maybe he will and maybe not. He is still a success as a 4th rounder if he is a perennial backup and 6th OL. If Fleming is indeed a backup at OG, we could have Cannon and Fleming as the active backups in 2015. This is without counting on immediate help from rookies.

 

[RayClay]

I see no reason to risk injury to Brady by playing Practice Team players at OG. This experiment was tried in the first few games. So, no, I don't think that this is the time for experiments. There is a long off-season and preseason where we can find out what we have at guard.

That being said, I believe the Connolly and Fleming are injured and won't play much if at all in the next couple of games. So, Kline will likely start at LG, as he did for a time last year. But that isn't anything new; it is just "next man up".

I think that the time has come to stop listing Cannon as an OG.

So, we have Wendell (on a 1 year contract), Fleming, Kline, Devey and Barker going into 2015. IMHO, Connolly makes a serious difference. Fleming may be a future starter, or not. In any case, he should be a fine backup. Then, we have Wendell/Fleming at one guard spot. Unless we add someone, we have Kline/Devey/Barker at the other spot.

I think that we will re-sign Connolly AND draft an OG or two.

Brady got sacked more last year than this. Playing players who have practiced all year is not risking Brady, just the opposite. If we never give players a chance to improve in game situations, when we have injuries (Connolly is injured) we will have no backups with game experience and you will get worse than you fear.

Also, if we never give our backups game experience, we will have five old offensive linemen, who will be more prone to injury and will have no backups behind them.

The Patriots have never developed their offensive lines by fearing to use players, just the opposite.

Under the salary cap, developing UDFA players is hardly an experiment, it is the way Dante developed our offensive line since 2000. He developed a guy who never played football for Pete's sake and I'm sure he "risked" mistakes with Neal.

I'm not of the school that thinks the Pats are dummies who do not know who they want on the roster, how to develop CBs, or how to decide which OL have upside.

 

[RayClay]

I would fine with keeping our current OL, by re-signing Connolly and adding a draftee to replace Devey. We would be a bit better in 2015, and better plead for the future. IMHO, this presumes that Solder is signed to a long-term contract. If he is here only for 2105, we could need to draft an OT, replacing kline on the roster.

The keys are the decisions with regard to Solder and Connolly. We will know about Solder before the season begins and hopefully also about Connolly at that time. In any case, we will know long before the draft.
======
AN ASIDE
I'm sure the hope is that Fleming will start. Maybe he will and maybe not. He is still a success as a 4th rounder if he is a perennial backup and 6th OL. If Fleming is indeed a backup at OG, we could have Cannon and Fleming as the active backups in 2015. This is without counting on immediate help from rookies.

Any draftee is beside the point. You think Belichick hasn't cut Devey even though they know he stinks, or could it be they see something in him?

 

[RayClay]

I see no reason to risk injury to Brady by playing Practice Team players at OG. This experiment was tried in the first few games. So, no, I don't think that this is the time for experiments. There is a long off-season and preseason where we can find out what we have at guard.

That being said, I believe the Connolly and Fleming are injured and won't play much if at all in the next couple of games. So, Kline will likely start at LG, as he did for a time last year. But that isn't anything new; it is just "next man up".

I think that the time has come to stop listing Cannon as an OG.

So, we have Wendell (on a 1 year contract), Fleming, Kline, Devey and Barker going into 2015. IMHO, Connolly makes a serious difference. Fleming may be a future starter, or not. In any case, he should be a fine backup. Then, we have Wendell/Fleming at one guard spot. Unless we add someone, we have Kline/Devey/Barker at the other spot.

I think that we will re-sign Connolly AND draft an OG or two.

Which practice team players did we play at guard early in the year? If you mean former practice squad, I imagine Connolly and Wendell spent more time there than anyone on the team.

 

[mgteich]

Which practice team players did we play at guard early in the year?

You used the words "I think this covers our developmental players including PS"

Obviously, we didn't use an Practice Squad players. The players used were on the 53. But you are correct, I should have said "developmental and Practice Squad" players. And the answer is "Devey". Why he is was ever on the roster instead of on the Practice Squad is a mystery to us all.

And starting Cannon at LG, a position that he never played in the NFL was certainly the use of a developmental LG.

Yes, OBVIOUSLY, the team saw a LG starter in Cannon and a starting RG in Devey. What is your point? They were given their chance. And Devey will be given their chance again in the off-season.

I'm sure the team was extremely disappointed that Devey didn't play well as a starter. After all, Devey played every offensive rep of the offseason.

CONCLUSION
It is certainly possible that the team thinks that they have a starting OG's in Devey and Fleming, and perhaps even in Kline. Or, perhaps they don't. We'll know a lot more in the offseason, when we see whether Connolly is re-signed and whether we draft an OG or two.

 

[RayClay]

Yes, OBVIOUSLY, the team saw a LG starter in Cannon and a starting RG in Devey. What is your point? They were given their chance. And Devey will be given their chance again in the off-season.

Imagine if practice squadders Connolly and Wendell were never given another "real game" chance every time they failed to impress over their tremendously long practice squad/apprenticeships?

That's iron man level irony right there. I'm sure you remember how long they were considered awful and continued at various times.

We'll know a lot more in the offseason, when we see whether Connolly is re-signed and whether we draft an OG or two.

How will they decide whether to resign Connolly if they are afraid to give potential replacements a few snaps against teams like the Jets and Buffalo (not that Buff hasn't looked good)? If you're afraid to get real time looks at players who've practiced all year, you'll just be rolling the dice in the future IMO.

 

[mgteich]

Imagine if practice squadders Connolly and Wendell were never given another "real game" chance every time they failed to impress over their tremendously long practice squad/apprenticeships?

That's iron man level irony right there. I'm sure you remember how long they were considered awful and continued at various times.


How will they decide whether to resign Connolly if they are afraid to give potential replacements a few snaps against teams like the Jets and Buffalo (not that Buff hasn't looked good)? If you're afraid to get real time looks at players who've practiced all year, you'll just be rolling the dice in the future IMO.

Who are you suggesting start opposite KLINE against the jets? I've already agreed that we should sit Connolly and start Kline. After all, I wanted him to start the first game of the season.

Is all this about starting Devey instead of Wendell?

Personally, if we were planning to start Kline and Devey, I would think that Garapollo should start also, or at least be the QB when the backup OL when playing (really the backups to the backups).

 

[RayClay]

Who are you suggesting start opposite KLINE against the jets? I've already agreed that we should sit Connolly and start Kline. After all, I wanted him to start the first game of the season.

Is all this about starting Devey instead of Wendell?

Personally, if we were planning to start Kline and Devey, I would think that Garapollo should start also, or at least be the QB when the backup OL when playing (really the backups to the backups).

I think the team should work in some players in game situations in case of injuries and to evaluate for next year. If you thought i wanted to change the starters, there was a misunderstanding. Next year is next year.

Obviously, if Connolly is injured, someone else has to play. If Wendell is injured, we'll need two starters, so I guess we call up Garrett Gilbert for QB the last three games, cover Gronk in bubble wrap, and hope for the best.

 

[RayClay]

I'll answer my own post.

Cannon - goes with the "let's get bigger" approach I'm sure they haven't abandoned. Didn't look good earlier, but no one did. Also didn't look good at tackle, then looked much better with playing time. They gave him a starters contract in year two and i doubt they give up on Solder, if signable, so they must be looking at some more work there and maybe a full training camp at G, unlike this year.

Devey - Also the big plan. Obviously, something needed to be done. No stork (and he had no experience anyway) so they went to plan B to assure Stork broke in with two vets. Stork seems stable and I do not believe they are going with Connolly and Wendell until they retire. No pressure on Devey now if he gets a few snaps and i would assume, if the team felt he was hopeless, he'd be gone.

Kline - Performed when he got a chance. Probably should hit the weights.

Fleming - Fits the big plan, did great at TE. I don't think any of this group has proven anything one way or another, but we're all in love with Fleming, at the moment.

Barker has been on the PS all year and got a salary bump, I believe. I suppose the first call up if needed.

Haumptman - Not a clue. Not even sure i spelled his name right and don't care right now.

 

[RayClay]

To address the all out panic around here based on the first few games. Besides Cannon and Devey, we had a new coach, a new receiver who was downright awful (Amazing what a little playing time did for Mr. LaFell) Brady was a bit off and our starting center now, was injured then.

Time to grow a sack and realize everything won't be perfect turning over a position. However players improve with practice (and more in real games) or get cut and if you don't prune the tree you end up with 35 year old has beens with multiple injuries and big contracts.

 

[supafly]

I agree with @mgteich that I think we should stop considering Cannon as IOL. He looked horrible there, and is much better suited to play outside at the tackle position. I'd also argue that his contract points towards the organization feeling that way, unless it were due to emergency or absolute necessity.

I've always thought that Kline should be getting more reps based on what appeared to be some stronger backup play last season (last season at BAL comes to mind), but he didn't look too hot earlier in the year. That may have been due to other factors, since I thought he looked fairly decent last week against a tough defensive front in Miami.

The bottom line is that I believe that we'll be seeing a draft pick or two again, though.

 

[patsfaninpa]

The advantage to Connolly is that, like Wendell, he backs up the centre position. There is some value in that.

I know you're well aware of him Manx. Saw some footage of Cam Erving at center for FSU and he's looking pretty good. I don't like him at LT. But, he can probably handle guard. Once you get him in camp and he shows he can handle center in a pinch. That gives you some roster flexibility on gameday.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Maybe they'll be another ProBowl G that'll fall out of the sky and into our laps again at the end of training camp like 2011.

 

[unoriginal]

Bedard has frequently had Connolly as the worst lineman since they gelled after KC in the transcribed Felger threads Deus and Rob have been considerate enough to post. Since he's also the oldest lineman on a fairly substantial salary that appears to be the first spot to target this offseason from both a cost/benefit and a future outlook perspective.

While people are calling Cannon's work at guard "horrible" from what I examined earlier in the year, Cannon physically is a much better player than Devey, who I thought at times was indeed horrible. Cannon looked like a talented player put into a role he wasn't prepared to play. If he had a full camp maybe he becomes a fixture at guard next year. Lots has been said about his contract being Solder insurance, but it also fits with another tryout year at guard. The Pats are inventing exciting new ways to get this guy on the field (tackle rotation?!?!) and unless they are going to Mankinize Solder in camp next year guard still seems the best route.

I don't think there is much disagreement that currently Cannon and Fleming are at least the 6th and 7th best linemen on the team. Currently they both are considered tackles but have gotten looks at guard. As the Pats historically prefer to have only 7 linemen active on gameday, with a tackle and an interior lineman as backups respectively, I predict one of these guys is getting moved inside this offseason. If not Cannon, then Fleming.

Kline doesn't get a lot of love but so far he's climbed the ladder faster as an UDFA guard than either Connolly or Wendell. I guess so has Devey but OL coaches like car mechanics need at least one car on cinderblocks to fuss over to be truly happy.

Bottom-lining it: Connolly walks, one of Cannon/Fleming moves inside with Kline and Wendell for gameday guards.