Revisiting Seymour trade

[Raider9175]

we could NOT afford both him and Vince.


Seymour='s Nate Solder


obviously Seymour is a gem... financially we would have lost him to $$$ from other teams. Out of our reach

thnx for SOLDER Al

Thanks Bellichik for giving us our foundation on D. Seymour has been a big help to the young guys on Defenseline- (L Houston, Matt shaughnessy, D Bryant, Trevor scott ) and has made a big diffrence in Tom Kelly) He been the perfect fit at DT for Raiders 4-3 defense. This not only has played dividends for the raiders now but in the future as these youngs guys are learning their craft from the best.
Hey Bellichik don't lose BIg Al number we like trading with you guys.

 

[SeymourTrophies]

Because Seymour is a good locker room guy.

The problem wa not letting him go, but not replacing him

This. Guys like Seymour don't grow on trees. Didn't teams average an entire yard less running to Seymour's side the year before he was traded? That's absurd. Jarvis Green, then the rag tag group of '10. Now they're trying to get Fat Al to get some of the responsibility off of Vince. They probably saw Seymour, coming off of a good season on a TERRIBLE defense, as good trade bait and went for it with a team that had tanked every season for 5+ years. I do think BB underrates talent vs. scheme though. Plugging in a JAG and praying isn't going to work every time, no matter how smart you are.

Only problem is, even with Seymour occupying two blockers, our LB's still aren't good enough set the edge or get outside pressure.

 

[NEPats1]

Seymour was NOT staying here, franchise tag or not. He made it clear last year when his contract ran out and was asked about coming back to the Patriots. He told Tom Curran, "There's probably about 31 teams I'd consider going to."

Seymour was gone, the Patriots knew it and got the most out of him that they could. The scene where the staff talks about it during the Belichick show on the NFL Network makes it clear that they had to save the franchise tag for Wilfork.

And Deus Irae, don't bother quoting me. You've been on my ignore list for a long time so I won't see your post. You're the prototypical internet forum troll, who almost always takes a contrarian position to prolong debate. I've seen your kind for years so I've learned to avoid getting sucked into your playground.

I thought he said that AFTER he was traded?

 

[SeymourTrophies]

Yeah, that was after the Pats traded him. He was PO'd about the whole thing, but I remember him voicing his disdain at having to uproot his family at an inopportune time (not that it's the pats' job to worry about that stuff).

Who the H knows if Sey would've re-signed? It's irrelevant. I would have sworn up and down that Mankins was a goner until about a minute before I read that he signed.

 

[IllegalContact]

Again, it was not about Seymour leaving......the arrogance of the organization in not replacing the lost talent.

 

[patriotsdynasty12189]

You cant just trade away your best defensive player for a draft pick 2 years from now with very little knowledge on the draft class. I know it probably allowed us to resign Wilfork, but Seymour's absence has been present ever sense.

 

[Shelterdog]

Again, it was not about Seymour leaving......the arrogance of the organization in not replacing the lost talent.

It's not arrogance; it's the simple fact that talent doesn't grow on trees.

There's a fair question of one year of Seymour (or one year of Seymour plus all the cap space he'd take to re-sign after 2009) is worth Solder but the idea that they haven't tried to put together the best team they could is incredibly stupid.

 

[IllegalContact]

It's not arrogance; it's the simple fact that talent doesn't grow on trees.

There's a fair question of one year of Seymour (or one year of Seymour plus all the cap space he'd take to re-sign after 2009) is worth Solder but the idea that they haven't tried to put together the best team they could is incredibly stupid.

Ooh rah......keep bathing in the koolaid......BB knows best, right?

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

Pointing out that someone who could have been franchised could have been franchised is not speculation. It is, indeed, the truth. Are we really going to have to get into dictionary issues now?

Here's what "could" have happened had we kept Seymour for the 2009 season:

After the season ended, (which more than likely ended at about the same time it did in reality anyway) Seymour "could" have been hanging out with fellow teammates Brady and Wilfork at a restaurant. While with them Seymour gets the news that he is to be franchised. Enraged, he starts yelling and cussing. Brady and Vince try to calm the situation, with it being in public and all. Seymour, in his fury, throws a punch at Brady, hitting him squarely in his right eye. Vince pulls him away but Seymour falls back onto Vince, who lands awkwardly and tears his ACL in both knees.

Seymour gets arrested and because of his fighting with teammates, the Patriots move to trade him but with his baggage, his worth on the trade market drops considerably.

Brady's right eye has permanent damage, causing constant blurriness. He can still play but his accuracy takes a huge hit and the offense struggles to consistently move the football.

Vince can never recover from damage to both knees. He retires after struggling in training camp before the 2011 season.

Note I said this "could" have happened. That isn't speculation. It is, indeed, the truth.

 

[Deus Irae]

Here's what "could" have happened had we kept Seymour for the 2009 season:

After the season ended, (which more than likely ended at about the same time it did in reality anyway) Seymour "could" have been hanging out with fellow teammates Brady and Wilfork at a restaurant. While with them Seymour gets the news that he is to be franchised. Enraged, he starts yelling and cussing. Brady and Vince try to calm the situation, with it being in public and all. Seymour, in his fury, throws a punch at Brady, hitting him squarely in his right eye. Vince pulls him away but Seymour falls back onto Vince, who lands awkwardly and tears his ACL in both knees.

Seymour gets arrested and because of his fighting with teammates, the Patriots move to trade him but with his baggage, his worth on the trade market drops considerably.

Brady's right eye has permanent damage, causing constant blurriness. He can still play but his accuracy takes a huge hit and the offense struggles to consistently move the football.

Vince can never recover from damage to both knees. He retires after struggling in training camp before the 2011 season.

Note I said this "could" have happened. That isn't speculation. It is, indeed, the truth.

There's an obvious difference between the team actually having the ability to franchise Seymour (could) due to the CBA and your fantasy speculation ("could").

 

[DonBlackmon55]

You cant just trade away your best defensive player for a draft pick 2 years from now with very little knowledge on the draft class. I know it probably allowed us to resign Wilfork, but Seymour's absence has been present ever sense.

Exhibit #1

Ravens vs. Patriots Wild Card Highlights - YouTube

How about that stop Seymour made on the first play from scrimmage stopping Ray Rice.......oooops forgot, there was no Seymour. Yep, there was no need for Seymour since we contained the Ravens to oly 230 something yards rushing

Nate Solder really helped the OL that day stop Ray Lewis, Suggs pressure on Brady for 3 sacks, 1 strip fumble.....ooops forgot the T tandem was the all pro Nick Kazur/Vollmer and Light


Exhibit #2

AFC Divisional Round - Jets vs. Patriots - GameDay Highlights - YouTube

Nate Solder once again helps the Patriots as Jets get only 5 sacks on Brady.
Richard Seymour once again helps contain Jets to 120 yards rushing, and 0 sacks, thats right 0 sacks

oooooooops. forgot, No Sey or Sold



But Solder will be all pro LT for Pats in 2015 when Brady is long gone and the ghost of Tony Eason will be QB'ng the Pats battling it out with Dan Orlovsky of the Colts.

Wasn't the idea to like win as many championships with the best QB you have TODAY.

Yes, Richard Seymour would not have helped this team since other OL never double teamed him or had to double team Wilfork

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

There's an obvious difference between the team actually having the ability to franchise Seymour (could) due to the CBA and your fantasy speculation ("could").

According to that same CBA, a player can leave via free agency if he chooses. A player can also have it worded into his contract that if he signs the franchise tender, the team cannot place the franchise tag on him again the following season.

Again, based on the CBA:

1. We could have lost Wilfork to free agency. Just because a guy says he wants to stay doesn't mean the chance of a bigger payday isn't worth looking at.

2. We could have lost Seymour after the 2010 season had he signed a franchise contract with the stipulation that it can't be used again.

You keep trying to tell us ways it could have been worked out. That's true, based on rules of the CBA, it could have worked. The problem is, based on the rules of the CBA, it could have gone very badly for the team. We could have gone into this season with no Seymour, no Wilfork, and only a couple of 3rd round picks.

That's the truth. It's no more or less true than you saying we could have kept Seymour and Wilfork and everything would be fine. That was my point.

 

[Joker]

to this entire thread...

 

[Deus Irae]

According to that same CBA, a player can leave via free agency if he chooses. A player can also have it worded into his contract that if he signs the franchise tender, the team cannot place the franchise tag on him again the following season.

Again, based on the CBA:

1. We could have lost Wilfork to free agency. Just because a guy says he wants to stay doesn't mean the chance of a bigger payday isn't worth looking at.

2. We could have lost Seymour after the 2010 season had he signed a franchise contract with the stipulation that it can't be used again.

You keep trying to tell us ways it could have been worked out. That's true, based on rules of the CBA, it could have worked. The problem is, based on the rules of the CBA, it could have gone very badly for the team. We could have gone into this season with no Seymour, no Wilfork, and only a couple of 3rd round picks.

That's the truth. It's no more or less true than you saying we could have kept Seymour and Wilfork and everything would be fine. That was my point.

Your point was wrong, as are many of your assertions in this response you just gave. I'd go through them individually, but they've been gone over before and this is a waste of time. You're welcome to pretend that the Patriots had no options if that makes you feel better.

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

Your point was wrong, as are many of your assertions in this response you just gave. I'd go through them individually, but they've been gone over before and this is a waste of time. You're welcome to pretend that the Patriots had no options if that makes you feel better.

It's not about the Patriots not having other options. It's not about saying there's no chance we could have made it work. It's about being pissy about a trade 2 years later based on nothing more than "it could have worked based on the rules of the CBA."

I don't like the fact that Seymour is no longer with the team. I do, however, understand that he could very possibly not be on this team right now anyway, and we wouldn't have a very promising Nate Solder. It's not about liking reality, it's about understanding reality. It doesn't make me some blind idiot that pleasures himself to every decision the team makes.

 

[supafly]

to this entire thread...

Then I won't even bring up the fact that there are some of us who felt that it was actually easier to deal with the loss of Wilfork then that of Seymour. (Oops, I guess I just did )

In my opinion, we could have lived to play with a couple step drop down in talent with Wilfork (Abrayo Franklin et al), but losing the best 3-4 DE in a disruptive guy like Seymour has not been able to even begin to be replaced.

However, I do agree that there's no use crying over spilt milk. They made their decision, and now we must make the best of it; but when you see a guy like Seymour still versatile and disruptive in the 3rd yr that he's been gone, it does make you wonder if that was the correct decision.

And for what it's worth, I don't believe that it would have cost as much as OAK gave him either. He made approx. 10 mill/per here, there was no reason to believe at the time that he would not have agreed to an average of 11..maybe 11 1/2 at the most. The bottom line is that NE probably would not have given him that though, so I guess it wouldn't have mattered. Seymour felt as though he was a defensive force that was definitely worth some money, and somewhere along the lines NE and BB did not agree with Big Sey's assessment. Now I'm just hoping he doesn't maul our QB.

At this rate, we may be able to draft his kid in 8-9 yrs since BB will likely continue to squirrel away those multiple 1st round picks though. Of course it's also very doubtful that Seymour's kid would "fit" the system here anyway.

 

[amazinPats]

I felt good about the trade when it happened, and I still feel good about it. The team was going to lose him anyway. You can't fall in love with players. Players come and go. It's the team's longterm viability, which is most important. Who would have predicted the health issues of Ty Warren, Jarvis Green, and Mike Wright, and Myron Pryor. There was some bad luck there as well. I can't imagine how one player--just one player, even Big Sey, would have changed the defensive line on his own.

 

[supafly]

I felt good about the trade when it happened, and I still feel good about it. The team was going to lose him anyway. You can't fall in love with players. Players come and go. It's the team's longterm viability, which is most important. Who would have predicted the health issues of Ty Warren, Jarvis Green, and Mike Wright, and Myron Pryor. There was some bad luck there as well. I can't imagine how one player--just one player, even Big Sey, would have changed the defensive line on his own.

I certainly didn't feel good about it, but you make a decent point by stating that one man would not have changed the entire line--that's for sure.

However, I do think that he would have helped out a lot more.

Regardless you are right, you can't get too attached to players, but it was hard not to like someone with the talent level like him. It makes it even worse now that he's still a dominant force in Oakland.

 

[IllegalContact]

I felt good about the trade when it happened, and I still feel good about it. The team was going to lose him anyway. You can't fall in love with players. Players come and go. It's the team's longterm viability, which is most important. Who would have predicted the health issues of Ty Warren, Jarvis Green, and Mike Wright, and Myron Pryor. There was some bad luck there as well. I can't imagine how one player--just one player, even Big Sey, would have changed the defensive line on his own.

I have no question about the trade itself......I thought it had to be done. neither the quality nor the ability was replaced anywhere in the front 7, and the problem is one of attitude as much as ability right now......with the departure of seymour, only wilfork is left as a guy who can not only play physically, but he can play violently, also.......Seymour was similar in that he he also has had a history of being a little dirty.......you need that.....a defense needs to have the ability to instill at least a little fear ...... the pats defense is this nondescript substance which does not scary anyone in any way physically, along with the fact that the scheme seems to be the wrong one for this year's pass-happy ways......at this point, I'd say the best scheme would be 2 big boy DT's in wilfork and haynesworth along with 5 LB's who work a zone-blitzing scheme to get open access to the opposeing QB......

right now, the scheme seems to be designed to do nothing well

 

[migman33]

I think its an actual Win/Win trade scenario. Not many of these go down but I think in this case both team should be happy with what they got!