Revisiting Reiss' Defensive Participation #s

[BradyManny]

Intersting to take a look back:

ILB Jerod Mayo -- 857 of 950 snaps (90 percent)

CB Ellis Hobbs -- 849 of 950 (89 percent)

OLB Mike Vrabel -- 825 of 950 (87 percent)

S Brandon Meriweather -- 811 of 950 (85 percent)

S James Sanders -- 758 of 950 (80 percent)

DE Richard Seymour -- 652 of 950 (69 percent)

CB Deltha O'Neal -- 636 of 950 (67 percent)

NT Vince Wilfork -- 597 of 950 (63 percent)

First thing that jumps out: 3 of those guys are no longer with the team. One way or another, this will be a very different defense next season.

Second, it makes me wonder about how we value DL vs. DB. We've always placed a much, much greater value on DL for the obvious reasons, but one thing that lends DBs some value is the sheer number of snaps they play. 4 out of the top 7 snap-leaders are the DB members.

If it weren't for injury, both OLBs, Vrabel and Thomas, would be in the top 5 or so - AD was on pace to play the most snaps of anyone I believe.

It also makes me wonder about Wilfork's value to us...we've been considering him the most important piece to this defense, but maybe that's a little overstated. Wilfork is in on the base D, and then sparingly in the subpackages [though I personally like what he brings to the table as a space eating pentrating NT in the nickel and dime, he isn't used there as much as I'd like, maybe the addition of Brace will allow Wilfork to play this role some more]. Does Seymour, as someone who can be and is used in any package, and does have a higher % of snaps, have more value to the team than Wilfork?

 

[Shockt327]

ILB Tedy Bruschi -- 399 of 950 (42 percent)

ILB Gary Guyton -- 300 of 950 (32 percent)

This also stands out to me. I know Bruschi missed 3 games and Guyton 2. But I never realized how little the difference was between them in playing time. Good stuff.

 

[JSn]

ILB Tedy Bruschi -- 399 of 950 (42 percent)

ILB Gary Guyton -- 300 of 950 (32 percent)

This also stands out to me. I know Bruschi missed 3 games and Guyton 2. But I never realized how little the difference was between them in playing time. Good stuff.

And didn't Gary's rotations start off slowly? I guess Reiss has the info to follow his snaps game by game, but... hrgh. Might be easier to just watch the '09 season. hehe

 

[ctpatsfan77]

And didn't Gary's rotations start off slowly? I guess Reiss has the info to follow his snaps game by game, but... hrgh. Might be easier to just watch the '09 season. hehe

Not entirely. There was at least one game early on in the season where Guyton actually was on the field more than Mayo.

 

[BradyManny]

Not entirely. There was at least one game early on in the season where Guyton actually was on the field more than Mayo.

Yup, it was the San Fran game. I think it followed the Miami game when Mayo really struggled in coverage. Vs. San Fran, we ran a lot of nickel packages, and Guyton was the only ILB in one of those packages if I recall. Mayo's coverage really improved as the year went on to the point where by the end of the season, I think Mayo had surpassed Guyton in coverage, by a decent amount.

 

[maverick4]

Belichick had time to look over his entire defense, and apparently found why we had league bottom red zone D, 3rd down D, and 3rd and long D.

 

[DarrylS]

Belichick had time to look over his entire defense, and apparently found why we had league bottom red zone D, 3rd down D, and 3rd and long D.

Agree have been pretty consistent with this thought since the end of the season.. change had to come.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Here are the critical numbers heading into Training Camp:

OLB Adalius Thomas -- 466 of 950 (49 percent)
OLB Pierre Woods -- 247 of 950 (26 percent)
OLB Vince Redd -- 35 of 950 (4 percent)

Crable & Craig have no reps from 2008.
TBC played in 12 of 16 games for SF last season. He did not play in the month of September. He did not record any statistics in 3 of 12 games played, including weeks 15 & 16.

Even if Jason Taylor is signed, this unit is the one to watch in preseason. Assuming Taylor is signed, as of today we can project Adalius and Pierre are penciled in as starters, with TBC and Taylor penciled in for passing downs. Craig is the most likely to be headed to the Practice Squad. Redd and Crable remain Practice Squad eligible.

 

[stinkypete]

Intersting to take a look back:

It also makes me wonder about Wilfork's value to us...we've been considering him the most important piece to this defense, but maybe that's a little overstated. Wilfork is in on the base D, and then sparingly in the subpackages [though I personally like what he brings to the table as a space eating pentrating NT in the nickel and dime, he isn't used there as much as I'd like, maybe the addition of Brace will allow Wilfork to play this role some more]. Does Seymour, as someone who can be and is used in any package, and does have a higher % of snaps, have more value to the team than Wilfork?

I think it is the position of NT that is valuable, not the player himself. The base 3-4 cannot function without a competent NT. We've been spoiled with an ascending player who may be the best in the league at what he does. Then again, this defense functioned just fine with Keith Traylor and Ted Washington, who were 1 dimensional players compared to Wilfork.

Wilfork plays a role. What does that role ask him to do? Play his gaps correctly, take on double teams, get off blocks to stop the inside run. Wilfork's role does not require him to rush the passer much. He does not drop into coverage. Wilfork has skills that exceed the definition of his role. He is an elite NT, but it is possible that the things that make him elite do not contribute much to the overall functioning of the defense.

It is possible that the defense as an 11 man unit, not 11 individual men, could be equally successful with Brace at NT as it is with Wilfork, if Brace fills the role of NT as well as Wilfork can.

 

[xmarkd400x]

It is possible that the defense as an 11 man unit, not 11 individual men, could be equally successful with Brace at NT as it is with Wilfork, if Brace fills the role of NT as well as Wilfork can.

If A=B, F(A) = F(B). =)

Does Seymour, as someone who can be and is used in any package, and does have a higher % of snaps, have more value to the team than Wilfork?

Valid question. Like BB has always said: If you only fill one role on the Pats, you had better fill it better than anyone else (a la Corey Dillon). I'd argue that Vince is more important, but the Patriots certainly get more use out of Seymour. Think of it like this: is the person who works the most at a given company the most important? Not necessarily.

 

[Fencer]

I didn't realize Wilfork took that large a fraction of the reps.

Yes, having a backup for him is pretty important.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Intersting to take a look back:

AD was on pace to play the most snaps of anyone I believe.

Aren't injuries part of the reason why Vrabel was playing so much last season in the first place? And weren't there more than a few threads questioning whether he still had any gas left in the tank?

I'd say that Vrabel asnwer that with a "Yes" but I'm not expecting more than another season of production from him.

Of course, the issue wasn't about whether to keep Vrabel - it was whether he's worth $4.5 million to the Patriots. I think we and BB would all agree the answer was "no" - so rather than cut Vrabel (assuming a re-negotiated contract was a no go) and let him go to the Jets or some other rival Vrabel was traded.

Not that anyone's questioning it, but its still important to recognize that context here.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Here are the critical numbers heading into Training Camp:

OLB Adalius Thomas -- 466 of 950 (49 percent)
OLB Pierre Woods -- 247 of 950 (26 percent)
OLB Vince Redd -- 35 of 950 (4 percent)

Crable & Craig have no reps from 2008.
TBC played in 12 of 16 games for SF last season. He did not play in the month of September. He did not record any statistics in 3 of 12 games played, including weeks 15 & 16.

Even if Jason Taylor is signed, this unit is the one to watch in preseason. Assuming Taylor is signed, as of today we can project Adalius and Pierre are penciled in as starters, with TBC and Taylor penciled in for passing downs. Craig is the most likely to be headed to the Practice Squad. Redd and Crable remain Practice Squad eligible.

And if he isn't signed this unit will bear even more watching:

CB Jonathan Whilhite 36% of snaps as a rookie all as a reserve
CB Mike Richardson 12% of snaps as reserve off PS after IR'd for rookie season
CB Terrence Wheatley 8% of snaps as a rookie before being IR'd after first start

CB Shawn Springs 0% of NE snaps (34 - injury prone missed 14 games in last 3 seasons in NFC)
CB Leigh Bodden 0% of NE snaps (UDFA developed, overpaid then traded by RAC, cut by Lions)
CB Darius Butler 0% of NFL snaps 2009 2nd round draftee
CB Jamar Love 0% of NFL snaps 2009 UDFA started 9 games in 4 years at Arkansas

Belichick had time to look over his entire defense, and apparently found why we had league bottom red zone D, 3rd down D, and 3rd and long D.

While in BB we trust (when it suits some of us), I think that remains to be seen...as does if he did, has he fixed it. We are certainly younger and faster on defense. But getting awefully thin on NFL experience, let alone in this rather complex defense, particularly in the secondary.

 

[maverick4]

While it remains to see if we have the solution, what I meant was it appeared the ones who left the team were found to be parts of the problem.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

While it remains to see if we have the solution, what I meant was it appeared the ones who left the team were found to be parts of the problem.

Appearances can be deceiving. We won't even begin to know for sure what the problem truly was until we see that it is solved. And it could be even when that does happen we will argue about exactly what the turning point was. The offense won't improve because McDaniels is gone, although I'm sure some will attempt to make that case, but it might because of upgraded depth at OL, subtle improvements at WR, TE and RB, and the return of a HOF QB. Ditto the defense. Getting Warren back healthy, adding a true NT backup behind Wilfork, adding a 2nd ranked SS and CB via the draft, returning a DROY at ILB, seeing last years draft class beyond Mayo emerge, and either getting younger and faster or getting Taylor at OLB may improve the defense dramatically. But that likely would have been the case if Hobbs had remained at starting RCB and PR amongst that group, too.

 

[bagwell368]

Second, it makes me wonder about how we value DL vs. DB. We've always placed a much, much greater value on DL for the obvious reasons, but one thing that lends DBs some value is the sheer number of snaps they play. 4 out of the top 7 snap-leaders are the DB members.

Divining BB's value placed on players and positions using only snaps is not sound logic. His draft picking, and the cash outlay for DL proves that BB places more value on the rarity/difficulty in obtaining DL's then say CB's. A Hank Poteat at DB or Monty Beisel at LB are much easier to find or locate then a passable DL (even at the gruesome levels of the two players I just named).

Then there is the physical effort involved. Think Seymour will be as good (or less injury prone) if he plays every D snap? I do not. By playing Wright, Green, etc. he gets more high quality reps for all DL's, this makes them better in the long run, ready to go if there is an injurym, and keeps them from being over worked and more oft injured then teams that just throw the DL's on the field for most of the game.