Revisiting our 2009 NFL draft

[RodThePat]

with all due respect, are you kidding? i don't watch o-line film, but i never really thought vollmer was a pro bowler. tell me i'm wrong.

He absolutely is one of the best RTs in the league, and was named second-team All-Pro in 2010. I would expect him to be a Pro-Bowler this season. His plays certainly has merited that.

 

[jmt57]

The biggest issue I have with these debates is that so many look at the draft with the benefit of hindsight and critique a single team with unrealistic expectations, that every pick should have been perfect. It's like saying Tom Brady threw twelve incomplete passes Sunday and concluding that he therefore had a terrible game because that is an unacceptable number or percentage of plays that gained zero yards.

Sometimes quarterbacks throw an incomplete pass; sometimes they even throw an interception.

Sometimes running backs fail to gain five yards or a first down; sometimes they even lose yardage.


Yet we critique drafts even though we have no benchmark of what qualifies as a good, bad or average draft and we critique one team's drafts with zero comparison to that of the 31 other team's drafts, all while typically focusing on the woulda' coulda' shoulda' minute details of what players were available and drafted later to reach a conclusion.

 

[Big-T]

with all due respect, are you kidding? i don't watch o-line film, but i never really thought vollmer was a pro bowler. tell me i'm wrong.

Way wrong.

Vollmer would be the starting LT on a lot of teams (and has been for the Pats) I'd say he's close to all-pro level never mind probowl.

 

[Deus Irae]

The biggest issue I have with these debates is that so many look at the draft with the benefit of hindsight and critique a single team with unrealistic expectations, that every pick should have been perfect. It's like saying Tom Brady threw twelve incomplete passes Sunday and concluding that he therefore had a terrible game because that is an unacceptable number or percentage of plays that gained zero yards.

Sometimes quarterbacks throw an incomplete pass; sometimes they even throw an interception.

Sometimes running backs fail to gain five yards or a first down; sometimes they even lose yardage.


Yet we critique drafts even though we have no benchmark of what qualifies as a good, bad or average draft and we critique one team's drafts with zero comparison to that of the 31 other team's drafts, all while typically focusing on the woulda' coulda' shoulda' minute details of what players were available and drafted later to reach a conclusion.

We've got a draft forum and a host of posters debate/discuss the players before, during [highlight]and[/highlight] after the draft (not all of the debate/discuss happens in the draft forum, and I'm certainly not one of the mainstays over there, although I head over as the draft nears). Are some people unreasonable and posting based solely upon hindsight? Absolutely. On the other hand, the players I mentioned were being discussed as players to take.

Just looking at this 2009 draft, for example, Mayoclinic wanted a top 3 picks of Sean Smith, Alphonso Smith and Connor Barwin. Two out of 3 ain't bad.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/13/212155-sean-smith-cb-utah-there-thread-about-him-yet.html#post1269117

Mayo was far from alone on this. I wanted Smith*. BOR was a Smith fan. Etc....




*Just a note: I'm not trying to pump my own tires on this, and I'm certainly not claiming perfection. I didn't think much of Laurinaitis as an NFL prospect, for example.

 

[patfanken]

Wow I would've loved to have you as a sub in my classes if I was failing one. Straight A student I would be. Since when is the draft graded based on the genius moves made to trade down and not the players picked? We all love BB but you really swimming in cool aid. That draft was horrendous but BB the coach saves BB the GM.

That's written like you took it from Ron Borges typewriter.....and just as full of crap, Don. Do they all have to end up all starters and all pros?

Take a closer look at that draft

It netted us a 3 year starter and legitimate all pro RT. It also netted us a backup WR/PR/DB who has been an invaluable reserve. 2 DTs who have been good enough to be back ups when healthy, a starting long snapper for a year and a half, (and there were no complaints about Ingrahm his first year.) and a back up OT in Orenberger for a year or 2

Certainly not a draft that will go down in the ages. Not even close, especially when you compare it with the last 3

Tate was a gamble and we all knew it. He's having a nice career in a more simplified offense.

McKenzie and Butler made sense at the time, however they simply turned out to be bad pcks. Not stupid ones, just ones that didn't work out.

Bussey was good enough to play a few years in the league, but there really wasn't any room on the roster for another OLman that year

And Ingrahm would probably still be here if he hadn't contracted Chuck Knobloch disease..

BTW- everyone likes to throw out Mike Wallace into the 20-20 hindsight attack. I do too sometimes, but really, who knows how if Wallace would have fared any better that Tate in this route specific offense? Who knows if the best the best thing that happened to Mike Wallace's career was NOT get drafted into this offense

Its easy for someone to jump in the "way back machine" and tell us they'd rather have taken Sean Smith, Mike Wallace and Connor Barwin. Its easy and very disengenuous.. People who do this are the same people who go through life thinking they are smarter than everyone else, kick the homeless when they are down., live to say "I told you so".....and are never there when its time to admit their own mistakes. You know who they are. Yes we do.

BOTTOM LINE - The 2009 draft - Not as good as we hoped, not as bad as advertised....and certainly not as good as the last 3. BB would say it is what it is, and move on. We should too.

 

[BradyFTW!]

You can't call any draft that yields 3 starters a flop, even if one of them is as bad as Chung. Just because the Patriots have recently taken to drafting multiple pro bowlers every year doesn't mean that that's the standard that you can reasonably expect them to always hit.

Also, this was the draft that brought Ohrenberger into the league, which is worth mentioning if only because he probably has the funniest twitter feed I've ever seen.

 

[Don_the_patfan]

That's written like you took it from Ron Borges typewriter.....and just as full of crap, Don. Do they all have to end up all starters and all pros?

Take a closer look at that draft

It netted us a 3 year starter and legitimate all pro RT. It also netted us a backup WR/PR/DB who has been an invaluable reserve. 2 DTs who have been good enough to be back ups when healthy, a starting long snapper for a year and a half, (and there were no complaints about Ingrahm his first year.) and a back up OT in Orenberger for a year or 2

Certainly not a draft that will go down in the ages. Not even close, especially when you compare it with the last 3

Tate was a gamble and we all knew it. He's having a nice career in a more simplified offense.

McKenzie and Butler made sense at the time, however they simply turned out to be bad pcks. Not stupid ones, just ones that didn't work out.

Bussey was good enough to play a few years in the league, but there really wasn't any room on the roster for another OLman that year

And Ingrahm would probably still be here if he hadn't contracted Chuck Knobloch disease..

BTW- everyone likes to throw out Mike Wallace into the 20-20 hindsight attack. I do too sometimes, but really, who knows how if Wallace would have fared any better that Tate in this route specific offense? Who knows if the best the best thing that happened to Mike Wallace's career was NOT get drafted into this offense

Its easy for someone to jump in the "way back machine" and tell us they'd rather have taken Sean Smith, Mike Wallace and Connor Barwin. Its easy and very disengenuous.. People who do this are the same people who go through life thinking they are smarter than everyone else, kick the homeless when they are down., live to say "I told you so".....and are never there when its time to admit their own mistakes. You know who they are. Yes we do.

BOTTOM LINE - The 2009 draft - Not as good as we hoped, not as bad as advertised....and certainly not as good as the last 3. BB would say it is what it is, and move on. We should too.

1. Would you give it a B+ based on:

I would give the draft a solid B, and I would give it a B+ if you consider their wisdom in trading out of the first round into 2010

I was responding to that. My point was since when is maneuvering in the draft the key to a successful draft class. How about the players themselves yes the ones we picked? Love BB but bottom line is 2006-2009 draft was what it was no need to try to make it sound like it was great. If it wasn't for his coaching I mean Butler, Meriweather, Wheatley, Wilhite, the list goes on. You're not supposed to hit them all but heck look at the list objectively during those years.

2. We disagree on what makes a successful draft.

 

[jbb9s]

He absolutely is one of the best RTs in the league, and was named second-team All-Pro in 2010. I would expect him to be a Pro-Bowler this season. His plays certainly has merited that.

Way wrong.

Vollmer would be the starting LT on a lot of teams (and has been for the Pats) I'd say he's close to all-pro level never mind probowl.

maybe you two are right but i've never heard anyone outside this board really put SeaBass up there with Long, Thomas, , D'brickshaw, that other guard from UVA that Pioli drafted, and I think the Bengals, Houston and Tennessee all have tackles that routinely make the top of the list......in the AFC alone.

 

[patfanken]

1. Would you give it a B+ based on:



I was responding to that. My point was since when is maneuvering in the draft the key to a successful draft class. How about the players themselves yes the ones we picked? Love BB but bottom line is 2006-2009 draft was what it was no need to try to make it sound like it was great. If it wasn't for his coaching I mean Butler, Meriweather, Wheatley, Wilhite, the list goes on. You're not supposed to hit them all but heck look at the list objectively during those years.

2. We disagree on what makes a successful draft.

Don, I wish I could credit with the one thing you seemed to agree with, but unfortunately I didn't mention anything about the wisdom and benefits of trading down. That was someone else....who is smarter than me.

It it does bring in one factor we haven't discussed, the shear number of picks we've had every year until the last one. Obviously the more picks you have the more likely you will have a shot to get a player who sticks. Conversely, the more players you pick the more likely you will have one that doesn't. Its the nature of having a limited number of roster spots.

Also we forget that back in 2009 virtually every one of those picks either made the roster, the IR or the PUP. You have to factor that the next season the competition gets tougher for everyone every year, and what might have been good enough to make the club one year, isn't the next....or the next after that.

Like I said it wasn't the best draft. but you made is seem (in your best Ron Borges imitation), that BB the GM can't draftl., And to quote BB himself, like every other GM in NFL history, "some years are better than others". Only the record will show that over the long haul, and compared with the best out there, BB holds his own.....and then some.

What happens is that Home fans only look through a single prism. They forget the dross that every other team is drafting as well. Only OUR draft failures matter or count

 

[Deus Irae]

maybe you two are right but i've never heard anyone outside this board really put SeaBass up there with Long, Thomas, , D'brickshaw, that other guard from UVA that Pioli drafted, and I think the Bengals, Houston and Tennessee all have tackles that routinely make the top of the list......in the AFC alone.

I would never put Vollmer in the class of Ferguson. That would be insulting to Vollmer, who's much the superior player. Ferguson has been living on his draft status from day one. He was never as good as Light, has always been a subpar run blocker, and has issues with pass rushers who can knock his hands away. By the time this season ends, we may well be saying that Solder is better than Ferguson (hell, knowing this board, I'm guessing Solder would probably get plenty of nods on that right now).

I think it's fair to be disappointed in the 2009 draft, but Vollmer's been a steal when healthy.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

with all due respect, are you kidding? i don't watch o-line film, but i never really thought vollmer was a pro bowler. tell me i'm wrong.

2010 Second Team All Pro

 

[Urgent]

Again when you have a team that annually has a chance to play in the SB, roster spots on the Patrots are harder to come by for rookies.

I've heard this line hundreds of times, and it is simply not true. The Patriots, like most NFL teams, tend to keep the vast majority of their picks - especially picks in the first five rounds. They turn their roster over as much as most teams in the NFL.

Simply look at this past year. Coming off the Super Bowl, and certainly picked as a team 'that had a chance to play in the SB' in 2013, they had major roster turnover, adding not only drafted rookies but undrafted ones as well.

And such has been the case the past 10 years.

 

[Metaphors]

Traded out of 1st round- Clay Matthews/Hakeem Nicks still on the board

Belichick was never going to draft Matthews unless he was going to reinvent the defense to a one-gap, penetrating scheme. He just isn't a scheme fit since he would have to take on blockers in the running game and maintain rush lanes against the pass. You just can't take a player that works in one scheme and assume they work for the Pats.

Same for Nicks. Any reason to believe that Nicks would thrive in the Pats structured passing scheme? He might but catching passes from Goober Jr. is much different from what Brady expects.

2nd round:
# 34 Pat Chung S
# 40 Ron Brace DT
# 41 Darius Butler CB
# 58 Sebastian Vollmer T

3 players still on the team. 2 starters. 1 Pro Bowl caliber. The one clear miss was generally considered to be a solid pick based on scouting consensus.

3rd Round:
# 83 Brandon Tate WR- Mike Wallace the very next pick
# 97 Tyrone McKenzie LB

Tate was a whiff and the latest example of the Pats problems drafting WRs. Can't understand it so no sense trying to defend it. McKenzie was an injury bust which is going to happen occasionally.

4th Round:
# 123 Rich Ohrnberger G
5th Round
# 170 George Bussey G
6th Round
# 198 Jake Ingram LS
# 207 Myron Pryor DT
7th Round
# 232 Julian Edelman WR
# 234 Darryl Richard DT

To get 2 contributors outside the top 100 of (what turned out to be) a relatively shallow draft is pretty good.

Obviously this draft wasn't a roster-changer, but 2009 wasn't optimal for accomplishing that. With lean draft years, you either want to get the hell out (2007) or build the "middle class" of your roster. Seeing 7 draft misses in a single year seems frightening...but looking at this draft as getting 5 contributors on a 53 man roster isn't bad at all.

 

[Wretch]

Here we go again. Every time someone's binky plays well or an unpopular player plays poorly we get the I told you so crowd and every time someone gets hurt playing a violent game we get the he's made of glass crowd.

In retrospect the 2009 draft could have been better but the same can be said of every draft for every team. Who here would draft A. Foster knowing what we know now. That's the thing on draft day 2009 we didn't know what we know now.

BB puts a great team, typically a SB contender on the field every year. That happens on draft day and on game day. We should be content with what we have as fans and not nitpick just because BB didn't draft player X or did draft player Y.

Could the Pats be more talented if we had draft an all pro in every round, of course, but that's not realistic. An average teams picks up one or two starters per draft , regardless of whether they are on ST, O, or D. By that gauge BB does very well and to select all pros as regularly as he does speaks even more highly of his drafting skills.

 

[jah]

3 players still on the team. 2 starters. 1 Pro Bowl caliber. The one clear miss was generally considered to be a solid pick based on scouting consensus.

I agree with most of your post, but let's be serious here. Just because Pat Chung is starting doesn't mean he should. Additionally, just because Ron Brace is still on the roster doesn't mean he will be after Pryor comes off PUP.

 

[Reckedtrek]

1. Would you give it a B+ based on:



I was responding to that. My point was since when is maneuvering in the draft the key to a successful draft class. How about the players themselves yes the ones we picked? Love BB but bottom line is 2006-2009 draft was what it was no need to try to make it sound like it was great. If it wasn't for his coaching I mean Butler, Meriweather, Wheatley, Wilhite, the list goes on. You're not supposed to hit them all but heck look at the list objectively during those years.

2. We disagree on what makes a successful draft.

It has been stated in various articles that Pioli and BB made the draft pick choices together. Both had to approve of the pick. Since Pioli has been gone, how have things gone? My point is, is that it's not accurate or fair to assign all blame (or all credit) to BB regarding the 2006-2008 drafts. While Pioli left in early 2009, his influence over the previous year of scouting and building the Pats draft board was still likely significant.

 

[Ring 6]

It's not the trade down. It's what was done with the trade down. Just as an example, given team needs and players who could reasonably have been taken (and often were lobbied for):

Sean Smith
Connor Barwin
LeSean McCoy
Vollmer

Nobody's looking back today and complaining about that draft if the trade downs result in those players being in New England


Laurinaitis was another player with a lot of supporters around here, while Maualuga met with more skepticism. I don't recall the board's general stance on Byrd or most of the other 2nd round picks.

Of course its easy in hindsight to find guys who went later and outperformed their draft slot.
I assume what you are doing here is creating a 'perfect world' scenario in hindsight, not suggesting this is the type of standard a draft should be held to.

 

[Reckedtrek]

I agree with most of your post, but let's be serious here. Just because Pat Chung is starting doesn't mean he should. Additionally, just because Ron Brace is still on the roster doesn't mean he will be after Pryor comes off PUP.

Metaphors posted facts (whether you like them or not) and you're attempting to prove him wrong with your opinion?

Here's one: Just because you don't think a player should start doesn't mean he shouldn't.

 

[Joey007]

This was one of the stranger drafts the Pats had. At the time I loved the Butler and Tate picks (wrong there), was okay with the Chung pick, and hated the Brace and Vollmer picks.

At least we got Vollmer out of it.

*By the way, his contract's up, isn't it?? Hopefully he's the biggest priority to get a new contarct other than Welker.

 

[ATippett56]

By the time this season ends, we may well be saying that Solder is better than Ferguson (hell, knowing this board, I'm guessing Solder would probably get plenty of nods on that right now).

One thing for sure, Nate Solder is a hell of alot cheaper than D'Brickashaw Ferguson.