Retirement leads to thin at ILB?

[BradyFTW!]

1. Have you ever considered that the Pats just didn't want Maualuga?

For some reason, a lot of people have trouble grasping this. Maualuga is not a good linebacker: he is notoriously unintelligent (couldn't even handle the nuances of USC's defensive scheme), he's always out of position, he has character concerns, and he lacks work ethic and discipline.

What part of that description fits the profile of a Patriots linebacker?

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

It can happen, if, when a thread gets high jacked due to bickering and has no useful purpose to the forum and is nothing more than a distraction, it gets LOCKED. There is plenty to read here. If a thread or two get locked to prove a point, I'm sure they won't be missed along the information highway.

Actually, I get really annoyed when i read through a thread, and want to leave a comment, only to find its been locked. How about instead of locking the thread, just lock out the idiots who are causing trouble. Banish them to the PS forum where they can argue till they're blue in the face.

 

[Frezo]

Actually, I get really annoyed when i read through a thread, and want to leave a comment, only to find its been locked. How about instead of locking the thread, just lock out the idiots who are causing trouble. Banish them to the PS forum where they can argue till they're blue in the face.

Excellent. Anything to curb the sandbox mentality.

 

[AzPatsFan]

I'll offer thought.

BB brings back Tank Williams, if available, who he obviously was reluctant to cut, back when he thought he would let Tedy have his swan song season.

But a 38 and 73 yard completion on Tedy, in half a dozen plays, just said it couldn't be done.

Comments?

 

[mgteich]

There were other options than Maualuga. My choice was Laurinitis. Others wanted Sintim. We would have then chosen a backup safety later. After all, we have our starting safeties signed up through 2011. Sure we needed an adequate backup, but is a backup safety worth the 34th pick in the draft? We secured one in McGowan and signed him through 2010. There were some fine safeties available when we picked McKenzie.

The bottom line is that Belichick wanted Chung, a top special teamer. Upgrading the special teams is very important to the success of the 2009-2010 season. Bellichick addressed both positions of need, just not in the order that some of us would have.

To be fair, many here had safety as their #1 priority, lusting after Delmas, a free safety.

For some reason, a lot of people have trouble grasping this. Maualuga is not a good linebacker: he is notoriously unintelligent (couldn't even handle the nuances of USC's defensive scheme), he's always out of position, he has character concerns, and he lacks work ethic and discipline.

What part of that description fits the profile of a Patriots linebacker?

 

[pats1]

I'll offer thought.

BB brings back Tank Williams, if available, who he obviously was reluctant to cut, back when he thought he would let Tedy have his swan song season.

But a 38 and 73 yard completion on Tedy, in half a dozen plays, just said it couldn't be done.

Comments?

Tank is an OLB in the 4-3 and has little value on special teams.

 

[Deus Irae]

It can happen, if, when a thread gets high jacked due to bickering and has no useful purpose to the forum and is nothing more than a distraction, it gets LOCKED. There is plenty to read here. If a thread or two get locked to prove a point, I'm sure they won't be missed along the information highway.

Boards without disagreement are useless. They're really nothing but sounding boards. Boards with disagreement will inevitably have times of hostility and conflict. Here, the mods engage in it as well:

That's just plain dumb...

It's the level of conflict that matters, and the preferred level is something that will be different for every poster. Some people like it rowdy, some prefer it to be more like a Japanese tea ceremony.

 

[captain stone]

I'll offer thought.

BB brings back Tank Williams, if available, who he obviously was reluctant to cut, back when he thought he would let Tedy have his swan song season.

But a 38 and 73 yard completion on Tedy, in half a dozen plays, just said it couldn't be done.

Comments?

Works for me, at least for one more pre-season game. We still have 3 open spots, so why not? Tank has also played STs; whether he has played them well enough to stick beyond Saturday would determine his fate.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Boards without disagreement are useless. They're really nothing but sounding boards. Boards with disagreement will inevitably have times of hostility and conflict. Here, the mods engage in it as well:



It's the level of conflict that matters, and the preferred level is something that will be different for every poster. Some people like it rowdy, some prefer it to be more like a Japanese tea ceremony.

Pshaw! We all love each other here Sir Pot.

 

[Deus Irae]

Pshaw! We all love each other here Sir Pot.

That one poster was just full of love for you last night...


BTW, I loved the pictorial response to the "Box loves Vick" post. Good stuff.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

That one poster was just full of love for you last night...


BTW, I loved the pictorial response to the "Box loves Vick" post. Good stuff.

There's always a neighborhood grouch who can't abide we children playing next door.

 

[mayoclinic]

There were other options than Maualuga. My choice was Laurinitis. Others wanted Sintim. We would have then chosen a backup safety later. After all, we have our starting safeties signed up through 2011. Sure we needed an adequate backup, but is a backup safety worth the 34th pick in the draft? We secured one in McGowan and signed him through 2010. There were some fine safeties available when we picked McKenzie.

The bottom line is that Belichick wanted Chung, a top special teamer. Upgrading the special teams is very important to the success of the 2009-2010 season. Bellichick addressed both positions of need, just not in the order that some of us would have.

To be fair, many here had safety as their #1 priority, lusting after Delmas, a free safety.

I agree with much of what you say, but I guess I still don't fully understand your logic.

We clearly had needs at both S and ILB going into the draft. As you mention, there were several potential players at each position available at the start of the second round. At safety there was Delmas (who many considered a prospect at both FS and SS, not exclusively a FS prospect), Chung, and William Moore as 2nd round prospects. At SILB there was Maualuga (who had the size and physicality but who many thought lacked the instincts and discipline to play in the Pats' sytstem), Laurinaitis (who many thought was more of a 4-3 MLB and didn't have the size of ability to take on blockers as necessary) and Clint Sintim as 2nd round prospects. And, as you say, there were 3rd round prospects available at both positions.

All that we know for certain is that with Detroit taking Delmas at #33, BB considered Chung at SS to be the best value remaining on the board, and hence, the best value out of those remaining 5 players. That makes sense to me given that Maualuga and Laurinaitis both had major question marks as SILBs in the Pats' system. We don't know for certain that BB preferred Chung to Delmas all along. We know that BB didn't prize either Chung or Delmas highly enough to pull the trigger on them at #23 or #26 when he could have had either prospect. We can infer that he probably prized Chung quite highly because he took him when Darius Butler was available, who he took shortly after at #41 and who was rumored to be a strong possibility at #23, so it's quite possible that Chung was BB's #1 safety prospect all along, but it's not definite.

The bottom line is, it was evident going into the 2009 draft that there would be an exceptional number of good prospects available in the 2nd round, and even with a record 4 2nd picks we wouldn't be able to get all of them. We did pretty well based on early results - iIt looks like we're batting 4/4 so far, so I'm pretty content, even though we passed up my on my binky (Barwin), who looks so far like he will be a terrific player. I would have been perfectly content to see Sintim at SILB, but I can't argue based on what I've seen so far that we didn't get value at #40 and #41 with Brace and Butler.

 

[mgteich]

We cannot KNOW anything, other than Chung was apparently the highest rate player on the board. Belichick doesn't publish his lists.

Given the multitude of formations, including a lot of 4-3 formations, it makes little sense to be to avoid Laurinitis and Sintim because they were better in the 4-3. We were not talking about using a top 10 pick where conversions are more problematical.

There are needs and there are needs. As we all argued about then, the question was which needs were great enough to warrant using the first three picks (34, 40 and 41). Most posters put the potentially starting 2012 safety in that space. Others of us have begged for ILB help for the last five years, and especially in this draft. Most of us were surprised that the slowest NT in the country was worth one of these picks, but we better understand now.

One thing lost so far in the pre-season is that Guyton looks best as an OLB in the 4-3. Even with all the early picks and the all the veterans acquired, we are still left wondering whether we have an ILB capable of starting against the run. Our backup is a player (Lenon) who almost all posters had being cut just two weeks ago. The other backup (Alexander) most posters would have preferred to have never gotten any reps at ILB.

As ihas been the case for the past five years (except for 2008), we will never know whether we would have been better off using a top pick for an ILB.

Finally, it says quite a bit about our coaching staff if the best ILB talents in the country cannot be coached in two preseasons to be a contributer for the patriots.

I agree with much of what you say, but I guess I still don't fully understand your logic.

We clearly had needs at both S and ILB going into the draft. As you mention, there were several potential players at each position available at the start of the second round. At safety there was Delmas (who many considered a prospect at both FS and SS, not exclusively a FS prospect), Chung, and William Moore as 2nd round prospects. At SILB there was Maualuga (who had the size and physicality but who many thought lacked the instincts and discipline to play in the Pats' sytstem), Laurinaitis (who many thought was more of a 4-3 MLB and didn't have the size of ability to take on blockers as necessary) and Clint Sintim as 2nd round prospects. And, as you say, there were 3rd round prospects available at both positions.

All that we know for certain is that with Detroit taking Delmas at #33, BB considered Chung at SS to be the best value remaining on the board, and hence, the best value out of those remaining 5 players. That makes sense to me given that Maualuga and Laurinaitis both had major question marks as SILBs in the Pats' system. We don't know for certain that BB preferred Chung to Delmas all along. We know that BB didn't prize either Chung or Delmas highly enough to pull the trigger on them at #23 or #26 when he could have had either prospect. We can infer that he probably prized Chung quite highly because he took him when Darius Butler was available, who he took shortly after at #41 and who was rumored to be a strong possibility at #23, so it's quite possible that Chung was BB's #1 safety prospect all along, but it's not definite.

The bottom line is, it was evident going into the 2009 draft that there would be an exceptional number of good prospects available in the 2nd round, and even with a record 4 2nd picks we wouldn't be able to get all of them. We did pretty well based on early results - iIt looks like we're batting 4/4 so far, so I'm pretty content, even though we passed up my on my binky (Barwin), who looks so far like he will be a terrific player. I would have been perfectly content to see Sintim at SILB, but I can't argue based on what I've seen so far that we didn't get value at #40 and #41 with Brace and Butler.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Skip the 4-3! You cats are over-thinking this.

3-4 starters in preseason: Adalius and Woods outside, Mayo and Guyton inside. These are the guys returning from last season who were playing those assignments over the course of the season. They can get the job done.
-- Guyton and Mayo have bulked up, they look bigger and they both have looked promising against OL trying to block them.
-- Both need to get better at shedding once they stack (that's a practice at game speeds issue), but I'm seeing holes plugged or narrowed, correct shoulder usage, and Guards 100 lbs heavier need a running start to move them back a step.
-- Woods is picking up where he left off, I expect him to get better with more playing time.
-- Adalius is who he is.
-- Worst case scenario: Mayo goes down. Thomas puts on the green dot and moves inside. Woods flips to LOLB and TBC takes his place.
-- Burgess "has" been training for OLB.

4-2 Nickel: Mayo and Thomas inside, Burgess and TBC at DE.
-- Worst case scenario: Mayo goes down, Guyton comes in, Thomas takes the green dot. Woods backs up at DE.

4-3: Thomas, Mayo, and Guyton.
-- Woods has been training for OLB.
-- Worst case scenario: Mayo goes down, Thomas picks up the green dot and Guyton slides inside while Woods takes his slot.
-- Burgess was working at OLB in the 4-3 during garbage time in Philly.

If pats1 is correct, Ninkovich has PSquad eligibility and can continue to work on OLB/DE.

Alexander still looks to be ahead of Lenon or Ciurciu.
-- he got more playing time at LB in preseason by a significant margin and he looks to be as big as Mayo's reported 250.
-- Eric is looking much stronger at taking on OL in this camp, he used him time on IR wisely I'd say.
-- As a #4 ILB/4-3 OLB he's looked much better than all the people complaining about him credit.

The key is Thomas, he allows the flexibility. Woods and TBC have both been cross-training behind him, as has Guyton to some extent.

Depth chart:

3-4
LOLB - Thomas, Woods, Burgess, TBC, Guyton
SILB - Guyton, Thomas, Alexander
WILB - Mayo, Guyton, Alexander
ROLB - Woods, TBC, Thomas, Guyton

4-3
SLB - Thomas, Woods, TBC, Burgess, Alexander
MLB - Mayo, Guyton, Thomas, Alexander
WLB - Guyton, Woods, TBC, Alexander

It's not mid-season yet, the second year starters are going to be very solid if not scary good by then.

 

[mgteich]

If there is no injury, your have no backup inside and no rotation except for the availability of Alexander. Perhaps it is overthinking to believe that Alexander has not all of a sudden become a quality backup linebacker. He never was before, and according to your post his time IR has helped so much that we can now depend on him.

We haven't seen a lot from Lenon. Bruschi is gone. So, what is the conclusion? The conclusion is that Guyton and Alexander are all of a sudden solid starter and solid backup???? IMHO, this is simply a wish given the circumstances.

"It is what it is". If we fail this year because of linebacker play, we will all say that we were unlucky and that the relative weakness of the inside linebacker position players was unforeseen. It is NOT unforeseen.

Skip the 4-3! You cats are over-thinking this.

3-4 starters in preseason: Adalius and Woods outside, Mayo and Guyton inside. These are the guys returning from last season who were playing those assignments over the course of the season. They can get the job done.
-- Guyton and Mayo have bulked up, they look bigger and they both have looked promising against OL trying to block them.
-- Both need to get better at shedding once they stack (that's a practice at game speeds issue), but I'm seeing holes plugged or narrowed, correct shoulder usage, and Guards 100 lbs heavier need a running start to move them back a step.
-- Woods is picking up where he left off, I expect him to get better with more playing time.
-- Adalius is who he is.
-- Worst case scenario: Mayo goes down. Thomas puts on the green dot and moves inside. Woods flips to LOLB and TBC takes his place.
-- Burgess "has" been training for OLB.

4-2 Nickel: Mayo and Thomas inside, Burgess and TBC at DE.
-- Worst case scenario: Mayo goes down, Guyton comes in, Thomas takes the green dot. Woods backs up at DE.

4-3: Thomas, Mayo, and Guyton.
-- Woods has been training for OLB.
-- Worst case scenario: Mayo goes down, Thomas picks up the green dot and Guyton slides inside while Woods takes his slot.
-- Burgess was working at OLB in the 4-3 during garbage time in Philly.

If pats1 is correct, Ninkovich has PSquad eligibility and can continue to work on OLB/DE.

Alexander still looks to be ahead of Lenon or Ciurciu.
-- he got more playing time at LB in preseason by a significant margin and he looks to be as big as Mayo's reported 250.
-- Eric is looking much stronger at taking on OL in this camp, he used him time on IR wisely I'd say.
-- As a #4 ILB/4-3 OLB he's looked much better than all the people complaining about him credit.

The key is Thomas, he allows the flexibility. Woods and TBC have both been cross-training behind him, as has Guyton to some extent.

Depth chart:

3-4
LOLB - Thomas, Woods, Burgess, TBC, Guyton
SILB - Guyton, Thomas, Alexander
WILB - Mayo, Guyton, Alexander
ROLB - Woods, TBC, Thomas, Guyton

4-3
SLB - Thomas, Woods, TBC, Burgess, Alexander
MLB - Mayo, Guyton, Thomas, Alexander
WLB - Guyton, Woods, TBC, Alexander

It's not mid-season yet, the second year starters are going to be very solid if not scary good by then.

 

[Nunchucks]

Definitly feel like the Patriots have a talent gap in the LB core when it comes to the next line of of players. Bruschi was gonna be the guy that could use his smarts to make plays, sure he may not be as quick in coverage, but he would be a reliable player who wouldn't makea mistake.

Now we have guys, that just don't give me confidence. One injury to a MLB and things go to crap. We've seen Thomas inside, it wasn't really that pretty. Who else is gonna play inside? Both Lenon and Alexander do not inspire confidence.

Move to a 4-3? Possibly, but that is just a bandaid and really, if Mayo goes down, the patriots have nobody that can even come close to making an impact on the game.

As for drafting Mags....meh, what is done is done, but the guy definitly looked talented when playing against the pats.

 

[pats1]

Definitly feel like the Patriots have a talent gap in the LB core when it comes to the next line of of players. Bruschi was gonna be the guy that could use his smarts to make plays, sure he may not be as quick in coverage, but he would be a reliable player who wouldn't makea mistake.

Now we have guys, that just don't give me confidence. One injury to a MLB and things go to crap. We've seen Thomas inside, it wasn't really that pretty. Who else is gonna play inside? Both Lenon and Alexander do not inspire confidence.

Move to a 4-3? Possibly, but that is just a bandaid and really, if Mayo goes down, the patriots have nobody that can even come close to making an impact on the game.

As for drafting Mags....meh, what is done is done, but the guy definitly looked talented when playing against the pats.

You treat the 4-3 possibility like it's conjecture in response to Bruschi retiring. They were playing a 4-3 long before Bruschi left.

 

[pats1]

If pats1 is correct, Ninkovich has PSquad eligibility and can continue to work on OLB/DE

Pssh..."if" ...

Although I'm not sure I'd agree with "Burgess has been training for OLB."

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Pssh..."if" ...

Although I'm not sure I'd agree with "Burgess has been training for OLB."

Trust me, I'm obviously right if Mark is taking the opposite side.

 

[captain stone]

We cannot KNOW anything, other than Chung was apparently the highest rate player on the board. Belichick doesn't publish his lists.

Given the multitude of formations, including a lot of 4-3 formations, it makes little sense to me to avoid Laurinitis and Sintim because they were better in the 4-3. We were not talking about using a top 10 pick where conversions are more problematical.

There are needs and there are needs. As we all argued about then, the question was which needs were great enough to warrant using the first three picks (34, 40 and 41). Most posters put the potentially starting 2012 safety in that space. Others of us have begged for ILB help for the last five years, and especially in this draft. Most of us were surprised that the slowest NT in the country was worth one of these picks, but we better understand now.

One thing lost so far in the pre-season is that Guyton looks best as an OLB in the 4-3. Even with all the early picks and the all the veterans acquired, we are still left wondering whether we have an ILB capable of starting against the run. Our backup is a player (Lenon) who almost all posters had being cut just two weeks ago. The other backup (Alexander) most posters would have preferred to have never gotten any reps at ILB.

As has been the case for the past five years (except for 2008), we will never know whether we would have been better off using a top pick for an ILB.

Finally, it says quite a bit about our coaching staff if the best ILB talents in the country cannot be coached in two preseasons to be a contributer for the patriots.

I agree.

Sintim/Barwin would've been a better choice at 41 instead of Brace; Sintim for his ability both Inside & Outside, Barwin for his versatility as Rusher, TE & STs. And I would NOT have traded a 4th & 6th just to move up from 47 to 40.