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Retirement leads to thin at ILB?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by DW Toys, Aug 31, 2009.

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  1. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Cousins,
    I see Guyton and Mayo in the 3-4 "IF" we use that as the standard defense. After that we have Lenon, Alexander and Ciurciu. Has the speed dial button on Seau been hit yet?
    Do you see another ILB/MLB being picked up? Are you happy with what we have backing up Mayo and Guyton?....not me.
    Is a FA like Derek Smith or Teddy Lehman of interest?
    This and losing McKensie with a knee makes not taking a shot at Maualuga a little more of a "what"? in retrospect.
    How about very good Eagle back up ILB Joe Mays (5'11" and 246lbs) and QB Feeley for Watson and a seventh?
    Back up ILB Bobby Carpenter of the Cowboys is having a spectacular camp. He is young and fast and covers the pass better than most. He is also a top ST guy and his dad played for BB.
    Thoughts?
    You Cousins foresee any ILB that could be a numbers cut or tradeable? Do you think we will stand pat?
    DW Toys
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2009
  2. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    Here we go with another edition of "DW Toys poses ridiculous trades to get rid of players he doesn't like." Why on earth would the Eagles trade Mays after losing Bradley for the year!?

    Why don't we just trade Sanders, Maroney, and Watson for Carpenter?

    If we really are moving to a 4-3 predominantly (as I suspect we would be forced to in the event of an injury to Mayo), then the depth is fine.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2009
  3. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Your analysis is based off the Patriots playing a 3-4: how much have they played a 3-4 in the preseason thus far? Four drives over two games?

    Your analysis would be better if you considered it within the defense that the Pats are actually playing, one that had Bruschi as a second-string MLB in the first three preseason games. In that case, Bruschi has a hard time making the roster without any special teams impact.

    In the preseason, the Pats defense has almost exclusively looked like this, excluding injuries:

    SLB: Thomas, MLB: Mayo, WLB: Guyton
    SLB: Woods, MLB: Bruschi, WLB: Lenon/Crable
    SLB: Alexander, MLB: Ciurciu, WLB: (Tank)

    Early downs:
    LDE: Warren, LDT: Wright, RDT: Wilfork, RDE: Seymour
    LDE: S. Williams/(L. Smith), LDT: Pryor/Richard, RDT: Brace/Adams, RDE: Green

    Passing downs:
    LDE: Burgess, LDT: Green, RDT: Seymour, RDE: Banta-Cain/Ninkovich
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2009
  4. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    I completely agree and is also a reason why I think this was completely Bruschi's decision and was not told by BB to do it.


    With Seau on speed dial the answer may be at OLB if we get Willie Mac or someone else at OLB than Thomas could go inside in an emergency.

    I wanted Carpenter a few years ago but he hasn't done much, if he is having a good camp though it is better than nothing though that would also likely mean Dallas isnt trading him.

    4-3 might be the long term answer if we lost a ILB or two.
  5. Palm Beach Pats Fan

    Palm Beach Pats Fan Rookie

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    Seau < Tedy < what Bill Belichick wants at the position for this year

    Arguably you can say Junior could give about equal to Tedy, but I can't say he gives anything more at all at this point.

    This just means more base 4-3, IMO, unless a waiver wire cap casualty at ILB occurs somewhere. I find that doubtful, though, given the increased use of the 3-4 around the league and the rather stringent physical requirements BB likes to have in his linebackers.
  6. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    First, McKenzie was probably going to play OLB.

    Second, Maualuga has a lot of knocks against him and the general consensus is that he was not really suited for the Pats' defense.

    Third, Bobby Carpenter has done nothing for his career so far even playing in a similiar 3-4 under Parcells. If he is finally switching the switch on and playing well, why would the Cowboys let him go after spending a first rounder on him?
  7. JFK

    JFK Rookie

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    Brushi's retirement didn't lead to a thin at ILB.
  8. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Hey Lloyd.
    I brought up a valid concern. Why don't you let the real knowledgeable and interested posters answer and you go peepee, get your Batman lunch box and get ready for school. The small yellow bus is on its' way.
    Mays is their back up ILB as there 2009 starter Gaither was just named, Mr. "I am smarter than anyone else on this site. Just ask me.". I thought you are so "in tune". They also signed Wilhelm.

    I don't think it would be feasible to trade Sanders, Maroney, and Watson for Carpenter? You need to think that through.
    DW Toys
  9. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    This crap wasn't funny the first time you posted it, and it's not funny now. You might as well dispense with the lame attempts at humor and try to salvage what dignity you have remaining.

    Sure, under the pretense of your "valid concern," you posed the absolutely laughable trade of Watson and a 7th rounder for Mays and Feeley. I mean, come on. You also clearly don't follow the Eagles too closely, because they're very high on Mays (and if you think any team wants to roll with Gaither as their starting MLB, you should probably lay off the drugs). They signed Wilhelm!? Whoa, stop the presses!

    You may not find my trade proposition feasible, but I'm sure deep down inside you really wish it would happen.
  10. thewaylifeshouldbe

    thewaylifeshouldbe Rookie

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    I think the greater impact of losing Bruschi is the senior leadership role. We have a very young group on defense and our more senior guys might be less inclined to "lead" given their current contract situations.

    Thomas is the vet and Mayo has the heart, but aside from AD getting a ring his rookie year in Baltimore, those guys have yet to win anything. I recall the writings about Rodney, Bru, Willie, and Vrabel being quite the influence in the locker room.

    Hopefully Sey, Wilfork and Banta Cain fill any leadership voids left by Bru and Vrabels being gone now.
  11. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Lloyd,
    You win. I bow to your human superiority over all others. And yes...yes I do follow what is going on in Philly, and your assessment of the MLB starter there at this point would be wrong then, wouldn't it?
    DW Toys
  12. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I don't think anyone had McKenzie projected as an OLB in the 3-4. In the 4-3, maybe, but not the 3-4.
  13. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Good post. I missed that point.
    DW Toys
  14. PatsWickedPissah

    PatsWickedPissah PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    May I suggest that folks with a fatal penchant for idiotic trades that make no sense and have no value follow MLB instead of Patriots football? There'd be like minded company there. Another one star.
  15. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    You'll have to point out to me where I assessed who their starter was going to be.

    Oh, that's right. I didn't.
  16. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Pipe down Lloyd. I said you won.
    DW Toys
  17. JackBauer

    JackBauer Rookie

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    Of course you can say that now, after making yet another claim that wasn't true.
  18. DaBruinz

    DaBruinz Pats, B's, Sox PatsFans.com Supporter

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    DW-
    Its pretty Jack Bauer brings more knowledge to this board wiuth just his pinkie than you do in your entire body.

    While the Eagles also signed Wilhelm, that didn't do much for their MLB corps. And its unlikely they would be willing to trade Mays because Mays is their primary back-up.

    BTW, who really need to work on reading sarcasm. It would go a long way to you actually being a productive poster.
  19. mgteich

    mgteich PatsFans.com Veteran PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Bruschi has done almost nothing the preseason. I'm not sure that we are that much thinner without him. If anything, a roster spot is opened. pats1 posted the breakdown below.
    ===============================
    SIX MIGHT BE ENOUGH EVERYONE IS HEALTHY, SEVEN IS PLENTY FOR THE POSITION

    In most games in the regular season, five linebackers get almost all the reps, perhaps six in some schemes.

    Thomas, Burgess, Banta-Cain, Woods, Mayo, and Guyton make six. I would note that Green is also a pass-rusher reducing the burden on the linebackers.

    We have another 2-3 roster spots. I think that we do need an ILB and a special teamer. I would add Lenon, giving us a solid, complete set of seven linebackers. Crable, Alexander, Ninkovitch and Ciurciu come to mind as additional "linebackers" who could make the squad.

    Any more roster spots than seven should be allocated to special teamers or devlopmental players, who could be listed as a position linebacker, or not.
    ======================================
    In the preseason, the Pats defense has almost exclusively looked like this, excluding injuries:

    SLB: Thomas, MLB: Mayo, WLB: Guyton
    SLB: Woods, MLB: Bruschi, WLB: Lenon/Crable
    SLB: Alexander, MLB: Ciurciu, WLB: (Tank)

    Early downs:
    LDE: Warren, LDT: Wright, RDT: Wilfork, RDE: Seymour
    LDE: S. Williams/(L. Smith), LDT: Pryor/Richard, RDT: Brace/Adams, RDE: Green

    Passing downs:
    LDE: Burgess, LDT: Green, RDT: Seymour, RDE: Banta-Cain/Ninkovich
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2009
  20. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    Simon,
    Is that you? I missed you. Where have you been? Mr. Macho Lloyd has already chimed in.
    As I asked a real question to the legitimate, thoughtful Patriot posters, I always think of you and Lloyd and how much insight you always offer to enhance these posts. Thank you.
    How was that?
    DW Toys
  21. DW Toys

    DW Toys Rookie

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    I am mostly shocked that Crable has been a no-show.
    DW Toys
  22. NEPatriot

    NEPatriot Banned

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    I think we've been watching the waiver wires from day one. As other's have mentioned, if we play predominately 4/3, dephth is not as much of an issue. Let's hope we stay healthy!
  23. Jimke

    Jimke Rookie

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    The Patriots have the bodies to man the linebacking spots. The

    question is whether they have the quality of linebacker required

    to run the 3-4 defense. During their run of three Superbowl wins,

    the Patriots had Mike Vrabel, Ted Johnson, Tedy Bruschi, Willie

    McGinest, Roman Phifer, and later on Rosevelt Colvin. Does anyone

    on this forum think that the current crop of linebackers can match

    up to the forementioned group in a 3-4 defense?
  24. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Of course not. But the current crop of defensive lineman can match up to and far exceed the complete group from the Super Bowls. Hence the 4-3.

    And your post echoes what I've been saying for a month: the Pats have been using a 4-3 because they simply don't have the guys to play a 3-4. If they still had Vrabel, things might be different, because he's someone you can put on the edge at OLB on early downs - they can't do that with Woods, Burgess, Crable, or Banta-Cain. Only Thomas, but that's only one OLB.

    If they had the personnel to do it, they'd play a 3-4 right now. But they don't, so playing a 4-3 is in the best interest of this football team.
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2009
  25. patchick

    patchick Moderatrix Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Losing their rookie ILB to injury makes them crazy for not having drafted a different ILB instead? :confused: So you're saying that...they should have magically forseen McKenzie would blow out his knee. Or that Maualuga would have been magically impervious to injury? Or that if they had drafted Maualuga and he had torn his ACL, then they would have been crazy for deciding to draft him in the first place? This goes beyond 20-20 hindsight -- we're actually slamming the front office for not being psychic.

    Yes, they are a player short at ILB. With a healthy McKenzie, they probably wouldn't have been. You can call that bad luck, or you can fault them for not finding an alternative better than Lenon. But you can't call it a draft decision-making failure.


    p.s. your wishing they hadn't taken Chung at #34 must mean you've found a new love for James Sanders, right? ;)
  26. makoute

    makoute Rookie

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    My sentiments exactly, they were already thin, Brushci's was done physically.
  27. slash83

    slash83 Rookie

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    I agree with what your saying your right on with the fact that we just don't have the lb's to play a 34. My question is inst it kind of worrying that BB does not have the personnel to play the defense he wants to? Let me just say that I think the defense has played well this preseason and are only going to get better with more playing time.
  28. pats1

    pats1 Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Well, I would stop short of saying he wants to play the 3-4; I'd say he wants to play the defense that gives him the best chance to win, and that is determined on a year-to-year, game-to-game basis.

    In this case, he thought Brace was a better value at that point in the draft than a LB that could have helped the Pats play a 3-4 and he thought that Burgess was a better value where he got him than signing any big-name LB in free agency.

    Those were the personnel moves that he felt were in the best interest of the team, and this is the defense that those personnel moves has produced.
  29. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams Moderator PatsFans.com Supporter

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    McKenzie was supposedly a "steal" where the Pats drafted him. Brace was a "no-brainer" at the piont he was drafted, he is going to be a starter in the 4-3 by the end of October.

    IF Mayo gets hurt, the Pats will go back to a 3-4 (or stay in it) and they will move Thomas back to the middle (or call Tedy out of retirement).
  30. JSn

    JSn Rookie

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    Here's a list of available Linebackers from Scout.com as of August 9. Anything here that might interested BB? I assume if they did, we'd have seen them in camp, but just wondered what you guys thought.

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