Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by broadwayjoe, Feb 21, 2007.
Oh well I guess that will help quite a bit.
Doesn't it seem like the colts are always in cap hell but never really have to pay for it?
What is the deal with that, did Polian make a deal with the League that he doesnt have to work under the cap?
Our resident capologist has pointed out numerous times that the Colts manage the cap as well as anyone. It's not like we couldn't see this coming, Peyton started restructuring his contract to get Harrison re-signed, I'm sure Tommy would do another restructure tomorrow if BB needed some quick cash. It's no big deal at this point, everybody has been doing this long enough to see what works to shift the cap.
restructuring and getting rid of big contracts every once in a while like edge , can do wonders
I thought he was a greedy, selfish jerk and his contract would destroy the team for years... just wait until they have to sign James, they will be nothing without him.
As long as your star players are stil going strong it is hard to get too buried. The tactic of changing roster to signing or salary to bonus are simple.
What has killed teams is when they have a handful of these contracts on players that don't deserve them anymore. All those years of pushing things off come due.
Now, nearly every team has issues with this every year, in varying degrees. The probelms occur when you have tried to shoot the moon and you are staring at a half dozen or more of these.
Here's my take on Manning's contract
What are they going to do after this season? Manning's gotta get paid sometime.
Well, when you keep restructuring like this, eentually you'll get hit with a balloon payment. That's how it works. Of course, by then the Colts are betting that the salary cap will have risen astronomically. It's a good gamble if you can get a fix on your finances and the cap, but it also has the potential to backfire on you if the cap doesn't rise as fast as you project, and then you have no flexibility for restructuring because you've pushed everything backward.
Putting the franchise tag on Freeny eats most of that up.
Unless he is signed.
they had what..$5 mill to spend .. the franchise for Freeney was 8.6 so that should put them around - $ 3 . Peyton says the day. Gets them back to where they were at around $5 mill and does it by having Freeney stay.
I think that Indy HAS launched a moonshot. They got a superbowl out of it, so they can't be too unhappy, and I think they have a chance to be contenders again in 2007 (although I would not be shocked to see somebody else win their division this year. If Young can play consistently, and they handle their offseason well, I think the Titans can be genuine contenders.).
Starting in 2008, the Colts are going to have trouble fielding serious contenders. I just bet Miguel that they wouldn't win more than one playoff game in 2008-2010. I think they will win zero during that stretch, and maybe not make the playoffs at all.
The Colt's salary cap page has them at $6,227,982 under. I think that most of the difference between your figures is that they factor in the Robert Mathis extension.
Bottom line, is ultimately when you use guarrantees etc like the Colts are doing, they WILL BE a time that you will pay the piper. The Cap isn't going to jump this much EVERY season. This was exceptional because to the new deal. Next year you will start to see MUCH smaller increases.
I agree with those who believe that 2007 is likely to be their last real shot at a title, and they are signing and restructuring like they feel it too.
Take aprox 3 mil for rooks, plus a a mill for injuries...not alot of breathing space as it currently stands.
PM said last year that he wanted to play 7 more seasons which would make the 2013 season his last season. As soon as the Colts can use the 2013 season to prorate signing bonuses I think that the Colts are going to do with him what the Pats once did with Willie - give him a signing bonus that took money from future salaries. I think that the Colts are going to do with PM what the Packers have done with Favre - redo deals for a couple of years and then stop and live with the big salaries so that the dead money, if any, at the end of the contract is small. Right now, the dead money hit for the 2012/2013 seasons is zero.
manning's move and dungy's decision to stay and try to repeat have to be directly connected.
somehow i have to believe that manning and the colts feel that they did indeed get one monkey off their backs by (finally) winning a SB. but now, they know they will always come up short in any comparison to brady and the pats in this decade unless they too can repeat. looks to me like they're going to throw the kitchen sink at it in 2007...
Restructuring basically is like living on credit. You save cap dollars now you will have to pay back in a future year - that is, you defer a certain sum from hitting the cap this year but eventually that same sum will be charged against the cap in a future year.
Most football coaches and executives are willing to push the pain into the future, figuring either that (a) they have a window of opportunity to get a Super Bowl win now or (b) they won't be around when the payment comes due.
Addendum - the Colts can't use the 2013 season this year. Nor can they use it next year.
They plan on winning another one,no doubt about it.
Pay-A-Ton has disappointed me;I was counting on him being his usual selfish self. His recent Brady imitations are extremely annoying.
Actually Peyton has restructured several times before.
yeah. dontcha just hate it when guys like this do something right? i mean, there i was with all of my comforting stereotypes of "payme" manning...can't win a big game...took the big contract at the expense of his teammates...threw his oline under the bus. Then he goes and wins a SB by driving his team down field to beat us when our hero can't get a first down with three minutes to play. and now he does this! what are we to do? it's not even fun to bash the yankees this year, what with A Rod and Jeter at each others' throats in the media, they're doing it for us...
Several is an overstatement, he has restructured twice in this deal. Each time he has simply allowed them to convert roster bonus (now totaling $19M) into signing bonus and spread over the remainder of his deal. He doesn't lose a nickle on the deal. Peyton has been paid next to nothing in salary on this deal. It's almost all signing and roster bonus through 2007 ($53.5M) plus a couple of million in salary over the first 4 years. The remainder of the deal is all salary going forward beginning in 2008, and double digit salary to boot. Of course that too can be converted and amortized forward by guaranteeing all or a portion of it. When you have $8M cap hits on a deal that averages $14M per, the chickens will come home to roost eventually.
It was long assumed by the media that Mannings 9 year $120M deal had voided into a 7 year $98M deal. But we now know that regardless of that perception, based on the requirements to void having been met, Polian is amortizing money into those voided years even as we speak - $3M+ to date moved into the void - as he did with the about to be voided years in Freeney's deal. That will just make it harder to structure a cap friendly extension of Mannings deal because there will already be essentially dead cap awaiting through 2012 which the new deal will sit on top of. And Peyton will be 37 heading into a 2013 season.
Miguel now says he believes they will eventually do what the Packers are doing which he characterizes as living with the hits to avoid increasing dead cap. Only I believe the hits they would be living with under that scenario would be close to double the Favre hits, so they best hope they are getting a lot more out of Manning in the next several years then the Pack has been getting out of Favre, and that Peyton doesn't void 2011-2012 as Freeney just did for another little bite of the bonus apple at 35. Because the last time they faced a tag situation for Manning it was $18M, but coming off a $19M cap hit in 2010 and with dead cap to boot, I shudder to think what his tag would be in 2011.
I thought I recalled Miguel once saying he believed they would likely take the hit on this years roster bonus to avoid $8M in ever increasing amortization, but apparently they didn't. So I tend to doubt they will bite the bullit on back to back to back cap hits of $18-21M in 2008-2009-2010 either.
This is/was Miguel's estimate of Manning's deal as it evolves created last off season. Not sure how up to date it is (maybe he'll update it being we are having our usual off season Manning contract/Indy cap stragegy go arounds)since it shows proration into 2012. It's always a fascinating thing to broadly scope out though - ever mindful that 2011-2012 remain voidable at Manning's discretion and 2013 doesn't exist yet, and will cost a few bucks to create.
I am just fascinated at how you can recall something that I most likely never said but are real careful to avoid pointing out that I said on the 8th "I looked on the NFLPA.org site. According to that Peyton is signed through the 2012 season. I trust the NFLPA.org site more than I do media reports" which is why I advised a Colts capologist to prorate the 10 million roster bonus over 6 years.
Can you please provide a link that supports your recollection??
Maybe the media needs to read Adamjt13's posts on voidable contracts
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