Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora (merged many times)

[Ring 6]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

Building a pass rush goes two ways Andy. You can build it through scheme or build it through players. Why can't you do both?

You have to. But doing it at the expense of the overall defense isnt wise.

I would love Osi but Raheem is an interesting one that I wouldn't discount either. The defensive improvement is going to be predicated on what we already have. Any additions are going to be complimentary pieces that may take the D to another level.

I would agree that we are making additive moves, not defining ones. That is why I cant understand why we would pay 10mill a year to a sub package pass rusher.

Bodden's return (and hopeful injury free season) is the biggest improvement for mine.

Half of the pass rush, maybe more, is the coverage.
Anyone can get to the QB if you cover long enough, and anyone can cover long enough if you get to the QB quick. Its the combination that matters.
I am just really surprised that Patsfans after watching this team win the way they have all these years are so duped into thinking one guy changes everything.
Frankly, whoever is in the spot that Osi would otherwise occupy is going to make plays too. Osi had 9 of his 11.5 sacks in 4 games. That means in the other 12, he had 2.5.
That was in a system that let him ignore the pass.
The increase/dropoff between him and whoever adds up to a handful of plays over the course of a season. Since he also would detract from the run D, aside from fans liking sacks, how much further ahead are we at the cost of 10mill a year?
Its not like Osi vs no Osi is 50 sacks vs 0.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

If it gets done its because just like the Haynesworth deal BB is moving more towards utilizing players skillsets and building a team around talent as opposed to forcing talent into fitting into the team. If not, Its most likely the pricetag was too high. Too say he's overrated as a pass rusher is absurd and anybody who actually watched him play knows this. When he isn't getting to the QB, he's drawing attention for someone like, Tuck, Kawanuka, JPP or Cofield.

I do think, however, it's fair to say that, to the Patriots at least, he's not worth the money he thinks he is.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

cliffs on this thread:
-report: Pats interested in Osi as price possibly goes down.
- One half gets excited at the possibility of an elite pass rusher joining team overlooking the risks
- Other half claim overrated and not worth price tag.
- If it gets done people will be called out, if not people will get called out just like the idea of Julius Peppers.

If it gets done its because just like the Haynesworth deal BB is moving more towards utilizing players skillsets and building a team around talent as opposed to forcing talent into fitting into the team. If not, Its most likely the pricetag was too high. Too say he's overrated as a pass rusher is absurd and anybody who actually watched him play knows this. When he isn't getting to the QB, he's drawing attention for someone like, Tuck, Kawanuka, JPP or Cofield.

How can it be absurd to say anyone is overrated? Overrated doesnt mean bad. It means that the rating given by whoever you are speaking to is too high.
A poster called him an ELITE pass rusher, who is consistent, and a nightmare for LTs. He could be a very good player and still be severely overrated by those comments.
The fact is he is not consistent and is not ELITE, unless there are a lot of players in the ELITE category, which kind of defeats the purpose of using the term.

Curiously though, you crafted a nice post that concluded if we sign him its proof of a theory you have, but if not, your theory is OK, its just the money.

 

[jsull87]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

Adalius, until his skills eroded in his last season, was a plus run defender.
Colvin was criticized as not so good vs the run before he came here, but he was actually a very good run defender in his stint here.
Uminyora would be as bad a run defender as BB has put on the field willingly.

To be fair Andy couldn't that exact argument you are using be applied to colving "before" he got here? I mean umenyora may get here and like colvin improve that aspect of his game.... that is impossible to predict. What we can say is the guy has proven to apply a good pass rush. In saying all this i went back to the tape and saw a very good giants defensive pass rush with pierre paul, tuck and Umenyora. In saying that Umenyora did seem to draw a double team on many occasions... you can't double everyone specially with DT's like Wilfork and Haynesworth.

 

[ausbacker]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

You have to. But doing it at the expense of the overall defense isnt wise.

Where is it suggested that adding Umenyiora would be detrimental to the defense? A returning player of our own could be detrimental to the defense because of a regression in performance.

I would agree that we are making additive moves, not defining ones. That is why I cant understand why we would pay 10mill a year to a sub package pass rusher.

In your opinion, he's just a sub package pass rusher. I wouldn't think he'd be just in on passing plays, but that's just my opinion.

Half of the pass rush, maybe more, is the coverage.
Anyone can get to the QB if you cover long enough, and anyone can cover long enough if you get to the QB quick. Its the combination that matters.
I am just really surprised that Patsfans after watching this team win the way they have all these years are so duped into thinking one guy changes everything.

Yet ironically anyone can't just get to the QB can they?

Frankly, whoever is in the spot that Osi would otherwise occupy is going to make plays too. Osi had 9 of his 11.5 sacks in 4 games. That means in the other 12, he had 2.5.

Don't buy into this. Nobody complained when Brady threw for 5 in a 1/4.

That was in a system that let him ignore the pass.
The increase/dropoff between him and whoever adds up to a handful of plays over the course of a season. Since he also would detract from the run D, aside from fans liking sacks, how much further ahead are we at the cost of 10mill a year?
Its not like Osi vs no Osi is 50 sacks vs 0.

You can't make that comment about Osi in the Pats D. It's the fear factor alone, much like it is with Dwight Freeny, DeMarcus Ware etc. Fear factor on the D.

Psychology plays a massive part in anything. If anything, Osi's reputation will precede him on the d-line, coupled with Vince, Albert and Jermaine.

Brock's an attractive option too, I'm just offering a different POV.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

How can it be absurd to say anyone is overrated? Overrated doesnt mean bad. It means that the rating given by whoever you are speaking to is too high.
A poster called him an ELITE pass rusher, who is consistent, and a nightmare for LTs. He could be a very good player and still be severely overrated by those comments.
The fact is he is not consistent and is not ELITE, unless there are a lot of players in the ELITE category, which kind of defeats the purpose of using the term.

Curiously though, you crafted a nice post that concluded if we sign him its proof of a theory you have, but if not, your theory is OK, its just the money.

When he's healthy he is elite, ask any Giants fan or better yet an eagles/bears/cowboys/skins fan how good the guy is. His health is the only issue that would hold him back anywhere not his talent or his abilty to stuff the run but his health. Just like we didn't sign Haynesworth to occupy space, we wouldn't bring in a weakside end to stuff the run. I think most have seen that BB is moving to incorporate quite alot of 4-3 in his defense. You seem to think that his defensive philosophy isn't changing. If he brings in Umenyiora at the price he would cost it would most convince the "non" believers in such a philosophical change but if he doesn't come and we bring in Brock instead it still shows the way he's leaning, just on a less "flashy" scale. Umenyiora is just a bigger risk because of the injury history and pricetag.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

To be fair Andy couldn't that exact argument you are using be applied to colving "before" he got here? I mean umenyora may get here and like colvin improve that aspect of his game.... that is impossible to predict.

Not really impossible. Colvin was still young and developing.
I don't think its wise to ignore a players weakness and say, hey you never know maybe he will just get good.

What we can say is the guy has proven to apply a good pass rush. In saying all this i went back to the tape and saw a very good giants defensive pass rush with pierre paul, tuck and Umenyora. In saying that Umenyora did seem to draw a double team on many occasions... you can't double everyone specially with DT's like Wilfork and Haynesworth.

I don't dispute Osi could help our pass rush.
I dispute how much the difference really would be, whether it could possibly compensate for his run D weaknesses, and how you could possibly justify paying $10mill a year for that package.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

When he's healthy he is elite, ask any Giants fan or better yet an eagles/bears/cowboys/skins fan how good the guy is.

I don't have to ask anyone. He is not elite. He's a good pass rusher, but elite is a large exaggeration.

His health is the only issue that would hold him back anywhere not his talent or his abilty to stuff the run but his health.

Inconsistency, poor run defense, attitude are concerns I have in addition to his health that would keep me from paying him 10mill a year.

Just like we didn't sign Haynesworth to occupy space, we wouldn't bring in a weakside end to stuff the run. I think most have seen that BB is moving to incorporate quite alot of 4-3 in his defense. You seem to think that his defensive philosophy isn't changing. If he brings in Umenyiora at the price he would cost it would most convince the "non" believers in such a philosophical change but if he doesn't come and we bring in Brock instead it still shows the way he's leaning, just on a less "flashy" scale.

No. Things that make you guess what you think BB is doing will not convince me of anything. Him ACTUALLY DOING IT WOULD.
You are now using transactions that haven't happened as proof of what they mean. Come on.
As I have said, over and over. 43 vs 34 is inconsequential to me, although I think the personell is better suited to a 34. But reading tea leaves to conclude that because Albert Haynesworth, who quit on his last team, and we gave up a 5th round pick 2 years from now, doesn't like to play 2 gap, Bill Belichick will now abandoned a concept that has been the center of his defensive philosphy for his entire career, if frankly, ludicrous.
A broken clock is right twice a day. If someday BB decides that he wants to abandon the 2gap philosophy, all of those posters who have been saying for 10 years that we need to be aggressive, while ignoring the results, would happen to be right out of dumb luck. That does not make them prescient.

This board has created an idea that BB has decided everything he believes about defense is now wrong and after 30 years in the NFL its time to copy someone else. I find it silly, and I find the idea that its because Albert freaking Haynesworth doesnt like to 2gap so BB will cede authority to keep Albert happy entirely foolish.

If such a thing is going to happen, I think I will have to see it to believe it because everything I have seen about BB tells me he wouldn't walk into 2011 and say "My defensive philosophy sucks, I'm going to try someone elses"

 

[ausbacker]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

I don't have to ask anyone. He is not elite. He's a good pass rusher, but elite is a large exaggeration.


Inconsistency, poor run defense, attitude are concerns I have in addition to his health that would keep me from paying him 10mill a year.



No. Things that make you guess what you think BB is doing will not convince me of anything. Him ACTUALLY DOING IT WOULD.
You are now using transactions that haven't happened as proof of what they mean. Come on.
As I have said, over and over. 43 vs 34 is inconsequential to me, although I think the personell is better suited to a 34. But reading tea leaves to conclude that because Albert Haynesworth, who quit on his last team, and we gave up a 5th round pick 2 years from now, doesn't like to play 2 gap, Bill Belichick will now abandoned a concept that has been the center of his defensive philosphy for his entire career, if frankly, ludicrous.
A broken clock is right twice a day. If someday BB decides that he wants to abandon the 2gap philosophy, all of those posters who have been saying for 10 years that we need to be aggressive, while ignoring the results, would happen to be right out of dumb luck. That does not make them prescient.

This board has created an idea that BB has decided everything he believes about defense is now wrong and after 30 years in the NFL its time to copy someone else. I find it silly, and I find the idea that its because Albert freaking Haynesworth doesnt like to 2gap so BB will cede authority to keep Albert happy entirely foolish.

If such a thing is going to happen, I think I will have to see it to believe it because everything I have seen about BB tells me he wouldn't walk into 2011 and say "My defensive philosophy sucks, I'm going to try someone elses"

Andy, you just called a guy with 60 sacks, 11 Pdef, and 28 forced fumbles in 105 regular season games "not elite". Right.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

First off, you guys need to examine the sacks. Just because someone had 11 sacks in a season, doesnt mean they're elite. Who were the sacks against, etc? Lets becareful with who we're calling elite here. Elite is like, Bruce Smith.

Secondly, did I miss the Mankins extension? I only ask because I don't see where we're going to get the money to pay both of them, and I think we all would rather lock up Mankins than Osi. Just sayin. Carry on

 

[mgcolby]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

what makes anyone think that the run game will be a big issue after the 1st quarter? With the number one scoring offense in football adding Chad and some intriguing rookies to an already productive backfield; combined with a hypothetical D-Line of Cunningham/wilfork/Haynesworth/Osi and a secondary full of fast, young, ball hawking DB's?

On a serious note I haven't seen anything that is sugesting Osi has asked for 12 million as stated previously in this thread, I haven't seen any reports of what he is actually asking for. Osi said Johnson is making more than him and Tuck combined and that it was not right. He didn't state that he should be making as much or more.

And just because Carolina is throwing around stupid money doesn't mean the rest of the league (outside of Oakland) will. His agent will identify the true market value of his client via interested trade partners willing to part with a 2nd, and at that point I think Osi will be traded. He has no other choice, he has backed himself into a corner and a trade is the only way out.

 

[ausbacker]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

First off, you guys need to examine the sacks. Just because someone had 11 sacks in a season, doesnt mean they're elite. Who were the sacks against, etc? Lets becareful with who we're calling elite here. Elite is like, Bruce Smith.

Secondly, did I miss the Mankins extension? I only ask because I don't see where we're going to get the money to pay both of them, and I think we all would rather lock up Mankins than Osi. Just sayin. Carry on

Out of curiosity, would Cameron Wake be considered an elite pass rusher in season 2010?

 

[TriplecHamp]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

I don't have to ask anyone. He is not elite. He's a good pass rusher, but elite is a large exaggeration.
How is being top 5 at your position not elite? There are maybe 2 players who have the first step and ability to create turnovers than Umenyiora. You probably don't watch the Giants much though so I can see why you would be skeptical that a guy not named Julius Peppers, or DeMarcus Ware would be deemed elite.
Inconsistency, poor run defense, attitude are concerns I have in addition to his health that would keep me from paying him 10mill a year.
Like I said before the Giants have about 4 guys on the field who put pressure on the QB. How many teams have 2 guys with double digit sacks along with a rookie DE? Osi opens things up for the rest of those guys to put pressure on the QB.
No. Things that make you guess what you think BB is doing will not convince me of anything. Him ACTUALLY DOING IT WOULD.
You are now using transactions that haven't happened as proof of what they mean.
So the Patriots bringning in Albert Haynesworth, Raheem Brock, amongst others. Ty Warrens own wards and reports form camp haven't convinced you that BB will be using more 4-3 in his schemes this year?
Come on.As I have said, over and over. 43 vs 34 is inconsequential to me, although I think the personell is better suited to a 34. But reading tea leaves to conclude that because Albert Haynesworth, who quit on his last team, and we gave up a 5th round pick 2 years from now, doesn't like to play 2 gap, Bill Belichick will now abandoned a concept that has been the center of his defensive philosphy for his entire career, if frankly, ludicrous.
Strong strawman, never said BB was abandoning anything.
A broken clock is right twice a day. If someday BB decides that he wants to abandon the 2gap philosophy, all of those posters who have been saying for 10 years that we need to be aggressive, while ignoring the results, would happen to be right out of dumb luck. That does not make them prescient.
Dumb luck? pls go, Its not luck to see that this defense struggled as it was last season partially because of weakness and partially because a lack of pass rush that allowed average qb's the time to make a sandwhich and take apart the defense. If BB were to move away from the 2 gap it would be for a reason.
This board has created an idea that BB has decided everything he believes about defense is now wrong and after 30 years in the NFL its time to copy someone else. I find it silly, and I find the idea that its because Albert freaking Haynesworth doesnt like to 2gap so BB will cede authority to keep Albert happy entirely foolish.
If such a thing is going to happen, I think I will have to see it to believe it because everything I have seen about BB tells me he wouldn't walk into 2011 and say "My defensive philosophy sucks, I'm going to try someone elses"Again, this isn't an issue of right or wrong, BB isn't abandoning anything. This isn't the type of move you make in one shortend offseason. I haven't heard anybody say anything about abandoning the 3-4 but rather incoprated more 4-3 fronts into the playbook. Next year the Patriots could be running a base 4-3, who knows but I honestly don't think anybody here thinks "abandoning" is the correct term for what BB is doing with the 2-gap.

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

Andy, you just called a guy with 60 sacks, 11 Pdef, and 28 forced fumbles in 105 regular season games "not elite". Right.

He has 60 sacks in 8 years, 7.5 per year.
A quick check shows:
Taylor
Porter
Allen
Peppers
Abraham
Ware
Freeney
Mathis
Suggs
Cole
Phillips
Will Smith
Williams
Hali
Woodley

have more per year, and I've left out players with less than 4 years in the league.
Thats 15 guys.
What is your definition of ELITE?
Mine is one of the very few best. No way Osi Umanyuora is elite.

 

[TriplecHamp]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

He has 60 sacks in 8 years, 7.5 per year.
A quick check shows:
Taylor
Porter
Allen
Peppers
Abraham
Ware
Freeney
Mathis
Suggs
Cole
Phillips
Will Smith
Williams
Hali
Woodley

have more per year, and I've left out players with less than 4 years in the league.
Thats 15 guys.
What is your definition of ELITE?
Mine is one of the very few best. No way Osi Umanyuora is elite.

lol at including his rookie year in which he got 1 start, his second year where he came off the bench for more than half the year and still amassed 7 sacks, 2006 where he missed 4 games and 2008 when he missed the entire season. Funny how one poster posts, his games played and you post "years".

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters.

We disagree on Umanyuora. We have both stated our cases, there is no point continuing to say the same thing different ways.

If you are talking about 'using some 43' that is different than 95% of the discussion on this board.
The discussion on this board is that BB has switched from a 2gap 34 base defense to a 43 1 gap defense.
That would be an abandonment of the philosophy he has employed in every season it has been his decision.
As I have said again and again, 43 vs 34 is inconsequential to me, but to conclude that the 2gap system is being scrapped is silly.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

lol at including his rookie year in which he got 1 start, his second year where he came off the bench for more than half the year and still amassed 7 sacks, 2006 where he missed 4 games and 2008 when he missed the entire season. Funny how one poster posts, his games played and you post "years".

I included the career stats of every player.
Feel free to calculate it differently. Go ahead and put up a chart of sacks per game if you wish. I had no interst in needing that much analysis, there have been quite a large number of peer pass rushers better than Umanyoura during his career. Eliminate whichever few you want from the 15 (plus the guys like Matthews that werent on my list because they are young) by twisting the stats however you wish, it will still add up to not one of the few very best, which is what elite means.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

Where is it suggested that adding Umenyiora would be detrimental to the defense? A returning player of our own could be detrimental to the defense because of a regression in performance.

I don't understand your point. Spending 10 mill a year on a guy who will be a liability vs the run isnt exactly a win/win.

In your opinion, he's just a sub package pass rusher. I wouldn't think he'd be just in on passing plays, but that's just my opinion.

I think we can agree that if he plays in the base, he would be the worst run defender BB has willingly put on the field in many years.

Yet ironically anyone can't just get to the QB can they?

Don't get the irony, but one player does not change things drastically.

Don't buy into this. Nobody complained when Brady threw for 5 in a 1/4.

If he only threw 9 more all year, they would be complaining about those.
Its not about the good games being a negative its about the inconsistency. Outside of those 3 early season games, he has only 4.5 sacks in the other 13 weeks (2 of which came in week 17)If that isnt a concern in inconsistency I don't know what is.

You can't make that comment about Osi in the Pats D. It's the fear factor alone, much like it is with Dwight Freeny, DeMarcus Ware etc. Fear factor on the D.

I certainly don't agree with that.

Psychology plays a massive part in anything. If anything, Osi's reputation will precede him on the d-line, coupled with Vince, Albert and Jermaine.

I certainly don't agree with that.

Brock's an attractive option too, I'm just offering a different POV.

I'm all for adding guys who can make plays.
But I think it is crazy to think we would pay Osi Umenyuora $10mill a year for what he would bring to the table.

 

[PushnPencils]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

He has 60 sacks in 8 years, 7.5 per year.
A quick check shows:
Taylor
Porter
Allen
Peppers
Abraham
Ware
Freeney
Mathis
Suggs
Cole
Phillips
Will Smith
Williams
Hali
Woodley

have more per year, and I've left out players with less than 4 years in the league.
Thats 15 guys.
What is your definition of ELITE?
Mine is one of the very few best. No way Osi Umanyuora is elite.

Here's a fair way of doing it. Take your 4 year variable, and take each guys 4 best statistical years. You can do 5 too.

 

[nashvillepatsfan]

Re: Report: Pats interested in Umenyiora, price now down to 2nd rounder

Out of curiosity, would Cameron Wake be considered an elite pass rusher in season 2010?

I honestly dont have an opinion on the guy, and dont have time to look up the info. I mean, did he have those 14 sacks in 14 games, or 5 in one game? I guess if you want to go by one season, then yes, he had a great season. I tend to use the word elite for someone who has had more than a couple great seasons. Someone who is consistant year in, and year out.

Just for the record, I dont mind if BB signs Osi. I think he would definately help the D, but Im not sure we could afford him, and Mankins. Besides, Im not buying all this "we're changing Ds" talk. Not yet anyway. I mean hell, they were in a 4 man front ALOT last year, and didnt have AH. I dont know, im tired of trying to guess what the teams doing. This offseason has been crazy :bricks: