REPORT: Mankins' [Tender Offer] Reduced - was offered 7 mil per season

[IllegalContact]

Logically it makes sense to read the news reports before you offer commentary. Had you actually done that then I wonder if you would change tact.

why? have the details of the pats offer (that is, beyond the '7m/yr' thing) been released? per Tom Curran:

Now, the length of Mankins' proposed deal, the amount guaranteed, the options are all unknown, although Mankins' agent Frank Bauer said the Mankins offer is 20 percent smaller than Evans' All that's known is $7M per year. Given that Dallas guard Leonard Davis signed for that amount in 2007, that's merely a competitive offer, not an eye-popper.

so exactly how would I change tact? run off at the mouth without facts like you do?

 

[RayClay]

I'm not criticizing. the facts don't exist to criticize one or the other right now. just playing devil's advocate with all of those here who 'know' what mankins deserves.

logically, it seems odd that mankins would throw a hissy fit over a 5yr/7m per deal, that's all. if he indeed got an offer like that with around 30% in guarantees and a gradual slope in year to year salary, then he is a little out of his mind to take that public. we will not know until this saga settles given the way the pats don't communicate these thing (which is fine by me)

I'm just not going to sit here and say 'mankins is wrong' at this point. the front office makes great moves, but has also allowed itself to screw the pooch from time to time. the deion branch thing dod not work out the way they had planned and you can argue it cost them an SB. other times things just run their course like asante samuel and they deal with it pretty well. the richard seymour ending likely did not go according to plan, but when al davis comes around throwing a 1st rounder at you, you have to take it.

ultimately, the team has final say, but it doesn't always work out well for them

I actually don't care who's right or wrong, I care what's best for the team. If mankins and his agent thinks this advances his cause, best of luck. He's entitled to conduct business as he will.

As far as the team goes, I was sweating out Wilfork. In a 3-4 defense, he is virtually irreplaceable. I'm talking about adequate replacement, not comparable. Our (ability to play 3-4) defense would have sucked for years as it did pre Ted Washington, with the Steve Martin's and Rick Lyles and Jarvis Green's and Klecko's. We may want to play a 3-4 but....

Seymour is another case. We aren't replacing Seymour. We needed to make a judgment based on his future vs. a huge contract vs a top pick and we made it. We're hoping two former first rounders playing a new position and other backups can keep us from collapsing next two our two stars on the line. there are no Richard Seymour clones available.

We're talking about replacing a guard? We probably wouldn't even need a low pick, but if we dangled one, half the teams in the league would give us a vet with a couple years left just to save the salary. Add a couple decent vets to our cadre of young players and we are adequate to good, which is likely better than we get at DE with more effort and expenditure.

If guard isn't the easiest, cheapest position to find an adequate replacement, you'll have to tell me what is.

 

[Isaac]

Re: REPORT: Mankins' Contract Reduced

blaming the SB loss on mankins?

What? I didn't know the Ravens defense played against the Pats without an O-line on the field.

:trolls:

Please.

 

[Synovia]

If guard isn't the easiest, cheapest position to find an adequate replacement, you'll have to tell me what is.

If good guards were so easy to replace, they wouldn't be getting $50M deals.

 

[ausbacker]

why? have the details of the pats offer (that is, beyond the '7m/yr' thing) been released? per Tom Curran:

Now, the length of Mankins' proposed deal, the amount guaranteed, the options are all unknown, although Mankins' agent Frank Bauer said the Mankins offer is 20 percent smaller than Evans' All that's known is $7M per year. Given that Dallas guard Leonard Davis signed for that amount in 2007, that's merely a competitive offer, not an eye-popper.

so exactly how would I change tact? run off at the mouth without facts like you do?

You're actually being serious aren't you? I've seen some pretty dumb ways to go about addressing an issue but this is taking the cake so far. Wow....

So far we have

1. The established value for Jahri Evans 7 year 56.7 million deal at 8.1 per,
2. We have Mankins agent on record stating the deal is 20% less than that or the assumption that it's 6.48 million per year,
3. We have a league source stating the offer tabled to Mankins is 5 years for 35 million or 7 million per,
4. We have Logan Mankins calling the Patriots organization liars, even though they have reportedly offered him an extension BEFORE THE CBA is in place, &
5. We know that the offer which ever way is spun will put Mankins in the higher category of guard contract.

Now which of these would you like to debate giving rise to the fact that you can't? So not only can you not win this debate but you've also established zero credibility whatsoever.

As I said, you've taken a rather dumb tact and are an obvious troll.

 

[Synovia]

1. The established value for Jahri Evans 7 year 56.7 million deal at 8.1 per,
2. We have Mankins agent on record stating the deal is 20% less than that or the assumption that it's 6.48 million per year,
3. We have a league source stating the offer tabled to Mankins is 5 years for 35 million or 7 million per,
..
5. We know that the offer which ever way is spun will put Mankins in the higher category of guard contract.

Number 1, 2, and 3 are at Direct odds with #5.

6.5/year, or 5/35 most certainly IS NOT in the higher chunk of guard contracts.

 

[BaltimorePatsFan]

He's given up 6 sacks in his last 4 playoff games with at least 1 in each game and 3 in the Super Bowl.

While Mankins has been an excellent regular season player, he surely hasn't helped the Pats much in the playoffs.

 

[RayClay]

If good guards were so easy to replace, they wouldn't be getting $50M deals.

I notice you avoided answering the question.

If guard isn't the easiest, cheapest position to find an adequate replacement, you'll have to tell me what is.

What position is easier to find an adequate replacement?

 

[ausbacker]

Number 1, 2, and 3 are at Direct odds with #5.

6.5/year, or 5/37 most certainly IS NOT in the higher chunk of guard contracts.

You're joking right? Evans is the best guard in the NFL. That is the ceiling in the market as of now.

Every week there's 64 starting guards in the NFL. Repeat starting guards. What part of being in the top 5-10 doesn't make that the upper echelon of guards to you?

 

[RayClay]

If good guards were so easy to replace, they wouldn't be getting $50M deals.

By your reasoning, we would have to pay every player up for contract by comparing them to the highest paid players at their position until we run out of money.

I say you need to have a strategy based on how you value each player and how much an adequate replacement will save you.

We have a lot of draft picks on the roster now and if we pay according to your highest player in the league strategy, we'll max out the cap and need to replace the later contract players with scrubs. Some loser teams do this. Fortunately we assess value ourselves and don't let other teams do it for us.

 

[JohnVM]

The offer seems extremely fair to me. Even if Mankins wants more than what was offered I have a real hard time finding it to be as insulting as he's making it out to be. It seems pretty close to top dollar.

 

[IllegalContact]

I actually don't care who's right or wrong, I care what's best for the team. If mankins and his agent thinks this advances his cause, best of luck. He's entitled to conduct business as he will.

As far as the team goes, I was sweating out Wilfork. In a 3-4 defense, he is virtually irreplaceable. I'm talking about adequate replacement, not comparable. Our (ability to play 3-4) defense would have sucked for years as it did pre Ted Washington, with the Steve Martin's and Rick Lyles and Jarvis Green's and Klecko's. We may want to play a 3-4 but....

Seymour is another case. We aren't replacing Seymour. We needed to make a judgment based on his future vs. a huge contract vs a top pick and we made it. We're hoping two former first rounders playing a new position and other backups can keep us from collapsing next two our two stars on the line. there are no Richard Seymour clones available.

We're talking about replacing a guard? We probably wouldn't even need a low pick, but if we dangled one, half the teams in the league would give us a vet with a couple years left just to save the salary. Add a couple decent vets to our cadre of young players and we are adequate to good, which is likely better than we get at DE with more effort and expenditure.

If guard isn't the easiest, cheapest position to find an adequate replacement, you'll have to tell me what is.

I would think WR is easier. all the pats had to do is go out and get moss and welker, and in their first year here, they along with brady (who prior to 2007 could have been characterized as a dink and dunk QB) broke all kinds of offensive records.

if finding an OG was so easy, they would have replaced the oft injured neal. if finding an OG was so easy, the pats would not have used a 1st rounder to get one.

I believe getting a serviceable OG is much easier if the pats decide to go back to the 2 TE offense that won them 3 SB's. I think it is harder with the offense they employ now

 

[patsinthesnow]

He's given up 6 sacks in his last 4 playoff games with at least 1 in each game and 3 in the Super Bowl.

While Mankins has been an excellent regular season player, he surely hasn't helped the Pats much in the playoffs.

wow.

.......

 

[JohnVM]

I would think WR is easier. all the pats had to do is go out and get moss and welker, and in their first year here, they along with brady (who prior to 2007 could have been characterized as a dink and dunk QB) broke all kinds of offensive records.

if finding an OG was so easy, they would have replaced the oft injured neal. if finding an OG was so easy, the pats would not have used a 1st rounder to get one.

I believe getting a serviceable OG is much easier if the pats decide to go back to the 2 TE offense that won them 3 SB's. I think it is harder with the offense they employ now

We did just pick up 2 TE's in the draft. Never know.

Plus, worst case scenario we can just have Wes Welker fill in at OG for the first 5-6 seconds of each play before running his routes. He already does everything else for the offense, may as well throw one more thing on his to-do list.

 

[RayClay]

I would think WR is easier. all the pats had to do is go out and get moss and welker, and in their first year here, they along with brady (who prior to 2007 could have been characterized as a dink and dunk QB) broke all kinds of offensive records.

if finding an OG was so easy, they would have replaced the oft injured neal. if finding an OG was so easy, the pats would not have used a 1st rounder to get one.

I believe getting a serviceable OG is much easier if the pats decide to go back to the 2 TE offense that won them 3 SB's. I think it is harder with the offense they employ now

lol at using Randy Moss as the typical, affordable receiver.

I happen to agree that Wrs are generally overpaid and overrated, yet how many have washed out because they couldn't play our system?

I think if you went over the 22 spots on the field, guard would be one of the more affordable to find an adequate replacement. Every position has their top players, but bargaining from the position of what some team valued their player, whether they valued the position more, or indeed made a bad deal, is ludicrous.

Our F.O. needs to only take care of our needs now and salary structure in the future, and let Mankins agent look for the highest comparables.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

like I said, if he really got a deal in the ballpark of 5/35 with 10-12M in guarantees, then AT A MINIMUM, he is wrong for taking it public this way. an offer like that by the pats would at least command the continued silent negotiation of the deal and the mankins camp should have quietly countered.

but if the 5/35 is some bogus back-loaded deal with 5M in guarantees, then he has a case for acting like an idiot.

my baseline for mankins would be the ty warren deal. a $$ friendly deal with a ton of guarantees. mankins at least deserves sizeable guarantees given the guy has started every game since being drafted. how many other players can say that?

From what I can gather NO never released any details on the Evans deal other than he gets $12M in signing bonus doled out incrementally between March 2010 and January 2011 and a $7M salary this season. No mention of further guarantees. No further details on salary structure. Todd Archer from Dallas reported that the rest of the contract is believed to be pretty standard with $500K roster bonuses in the final two seasons... That would mean his salaries beyond 2007 are roughly $6M per although there is the possibility they are somewhat backloaded since that is closer to the standard... Bauer says we offered 20% less, and he's likely talking about the $19M in essentially guaranteed money or total value tied to years (5 vs. 7). So $15M guaranteed on a 5 year $35M deal. Boo freakin' hoo if that's the case.

Reiss in his mailbag this morning, while cautioning to wait for the details to assess the offer, seems to think the disconnect with Mankins is tied to his personal (unrealistic) expectation he would be given a very top of the market deal to make up for his honoring a rookie deal he outplayed. NO seemed to take that tack with Evans, although as someone pointed out after being drafted in the 4th Evans, who is 2 years younger than Mankins to boot, exponentially farther outplayed his rookie deal than the first rounder... Ergo when Mankins deal advanced no farther than merely top five he felt betrayed, although I doubt anyone in this FO ever mislead him into believing he would get a top of the market deal, not to mention history were he remotely congnizant of it would underscore they never do those.

Reiss thinks there will be no further discussions and Mankins is determined to no longer play here. Arrogance, ignorance, ego...ride 'em cowboy. Wait til he finds out that sometimes when you go elsewhere and they don't have great or even stable coaching or decent QBing or talent playing alonside you people decide you suck and they never should have traded for or signed you and you never see a fraction of the deal you thought you had earned playing here...let alone the bulk of a deal you'd have seen had you remained, and you wind up auditioning as a JAG for the remainder of your NFL career.

 

[IllegalContact]

From what I can gather NO never released any details on the Evans deal other than he gets $12M in signing bonus doled out incrementally between March 2010 and January 2011 and a $7M salary this season. No mention of further guarantees. No further details on salary structure. Todd Archer from Dallas reported that the rest of the contract is believed to be pretty standard with $500K roster bonuses in the final two seasons... That would mean his salaries beyond 2007 are roughly $6M per although there is the possibility they are somewhat backloaded since that is closer to the standard... Bauer says we offered 20% less, and he's likely talking about the $19M in essentially guaranteed money or total value tied to years (5 vs. 7). So $15M guaranteed on a 5 year $35M deal. Boo freakin' hoo if that's the case.

Reiss in his mailbag this morning, while cautioning to wait for the details to assess the offer, seems to think the disconnect with Mankins is tied to his personal (unrealistic) expectation he would be given a very top of the market deal to make up for his honoring a rookie deal he outplayed. NO seemed to take that tack with Evans, although as someone pointed out after being drafted in the 4th Evans, who is 2 years younger than Mankins to boot, exponentially farther outplayed his rookie deal than the first rounder... Ergo when Mankins deal advanced no farther than merely top five he felt betrayed, although I doubt anyone in this FO ever mislead him into believing he would get a top of the market deal, not to mention history were he remotely congnizant of it would underscore they never do those.

Reiss thinks there will be no further discussions and Mankins is determined to no longer play here. Arrogance, ignorance, ego...ride 'em cowboy. Wait til he finds out that sometimes when you go elsewhere and they don't have great or even stable coaching or decent QBing or talent playing alonside you people decide you suck and they never should have traded for or signed you and you never see a fraction of the deal you thought you had earned playing here...let alone the bulk of a deal you'd have seen had you remained, and you wind up auditioning as a JAG for the remainder of your NFL career.

yes, but at 28, if you don't feel like this team is going to win it all, then it all becomes about the money. someone will pay him what he wants.

 

[Synovia]

From what I can gather NO never released any details on the Evans deal other than he gets $12M in signing bonus doled out incrementally between March 2010 and January 2011 and a $7M salary this season. No mention of further guarantees. No further details on salary structure. Todd Archer from Dallas reported that the rest of the contract is believed to be pretty standard with $500K roster bonuses in the final two seasons... That would mean his salaries beyond 2007 are roughly $6M per although there is the possibility they are somewhat backloaded since that is closer to the standard... Bauer says we offered 20% less, and he's likely talking about the $19M in essentially guaranteed money or total value tied to years (5 vs. 7). So $15M guaranteed on a 5 year $35M deal. Boo freakin' hoo if that's the case.

Football Outsiders has a full article on Evans contract. He's getting 25.6M in the first 3 years. My guess is you're exactly right, the guaranteed money is much less for Mankins.

Considering that the guaranteed money/money over 3 years is the only really important part of the contract, its not surprising he'd be pissed.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

From what I can gather NO never released any details on the Evans deal other than he gets $12M in signing bonus doled out incrementally between March 2010 and January 2011 and a $7M salary this season. No mention of further guarantees. No further details on salary structure. Todd Archer from Dallas reported that the rest of the contract is believed to be pretty standard with $500K roster bonuses in the final two seasons... That would mean his salaries beyond 2007 are roughly $6M per although there is the possibility they are somewhat backloaded since that is closer to the standard... Bauer says we offered 20% less, and he's likely talking about the $19M in essentially guaranteed money or total value tied to years (5 vs. 7). So $15M guaranteed on a 5 year $35M deal. Boo freakin' hoo if that's the case.

Reiss in his mailbag this morning, while cautioning to wait for the details to assess the offer, seems to think the disconnect with Mankins is tied to his personal (unrealistic) expectation he would be given a very top of the market deal to make up for his honoring a rookie deal he outplayed. NO seemed to take that tack with Evans, although as someone pointed out after being drafted in the 4th Evans, who is 2 years younger than Mankins to boot, exponentially farther outplayed his rookie deal than the first rounder... Ergo when Mankins deal advanced no farther than merely top five he felt betrayed, although I doubt anyone in this FO ever mislead him into believing he would get a top of the market deal, not to mention history were he remotely congnizant of it would underscore they never do those.

Reiss thinks there will be no further discussions and Mankins is determined to no longer play here. Arrogance, ignorance, ego...ride 'em cowboy. Wait til he finds out that sometimes when you go elsewhere and they don't have great or even stable coaching or decent QBing or talent playing alonside you people decide you suck and they never should have traded for or signed you and you never see a fraction of the deal you thought you had earned playing here...let alone the bulk of a deal you'd have seen had you remained, and you wind up auditioning as a JAG for the remainder of your NFL career.

+1 Great post.....

The fallacy of demanding an "inflated" contract (ala Evans) because he "outplayed" his rookie contract to the level Evans did is ridiculous. He was a first rounder (compared to 4th) and did have some significantly higher expectations. He lived up to them for sure, and even exceeded them somewhat, but he doesn't compare to Evans situation though in that department. But he ain't without warts........... He got positively STEAMROLLED in his biggest moment of his career so far, and there have been far to many games that he led in the "accepted penalties" department. As an interior linemen, he was prone to excessive penalties. Sure, you can blame some of that on scheme, aggressiveness and all, but still... the fact remains. He's not without warts.

He was offered roughly top-5 $$, so barring details to emerge that that offer was something goofy like - 1M,1M,1M,16M,16M, he ain't gonna win the "disrespected" PR game with anyone credible here.

He was offered what he was worth......... actually, possibly a little more, cuz you can argue those ProBowls were as much as those around him as his play. He's solid, but not great.

Later Mankins........

 

[RayClay]

Football Outsiders has a full article on Evans contract. He's getting 25.6M in the first 3 years. My guess is you're exactly right, the guaranteed money is much less for Mankins.

Considering that the guaranteed money/money over 3 years is the only really important part of the contract, its not surprising he'd be pissed.

If that's true, he can be pissed, as far as I'm concerned. He isn't worth near that.